Apple practices......

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

And the "anti-suicide nets" approach is an interesting take on solving what seems to be a problem that perhaps might be worth looking into, by any company - let alone one of the biggest companies in the world ?

That was another matter. Foxconn has a very low suicide rate per employee. Much lower than most European companies. And much lower than society at large. They have a million workers, look at it in perspective. Young people are far away from their families, they group together according to the province they are from -- and those worker cliques tend to mistreat outsiders. So there are plenty of personal reasons for suicide, not the work environment.

Conditions are far from perfect, but they are fine. And they have improved so much since I visited China the first time. This hype is just plain nonsense. I see it every month. These days, workers have a choice of where they work, there is a shortage. This employer is not paying enough? They just go next door.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Yes. Absolutely. The last threatened suicides at Foxconn had to do with the Xbox.

Those were threatened suicides over layoffs, not actual suicides over working conditions. And you are ignoring the deaths from explosions and the deaths from working with toxic chemicals.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

The reason the attention is on Apple is because they are the biggest company and will get the most readers; most of the evidence suggests that it is better to work on Foxconn's Apple production line than it is to work at other Chinese factories. Which is not to say that it's like working in the west at all.

Which evidence is that?

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

If you investigate this issue *at all* - and reading one NY Times article doesn't count - you will find out that - again, for China - Apple is one of the more progressive companies.

Apple ignored their own code of conduct for the past 5 years. They wouldn't even allow people to investigate the problems. They received reports about the bad working conditions that led to the explosions before they happened but they ignored them. This is not progressive.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

The fact that the NY Times didn't investigate Foxconn's Nook or Fire production line does not mean that they are not as bad or worse than Apple.

What makes you think that they didn't investigate?

[ProfCrash]

So the people that we read about working well over 40 hours a week, not getting paid over time, complaining about living conditions, for our garments and electronics are a small percentage of the population or there are a small percentage of factories where things look pretty and the media and human rights groups are brought to those factories?

Because if all Chinese factories enforced 40 hour work weeks and labor laws that were similar to the US and Europe we would not be having this conversation.

And if things get better in all of the factories in China the factories will move elsewhere.

Have things gotten better? Probably. But there is still plenty of evidence that the improvements still come no where close to Western standards. And there are still regular reports of abuses and companies being punished by Nike and other companies precisely because the companies don't want to change. The cynic in me says that we get the occasional "Look we are doing something about it" company change but that is me.

There is no denying that there is a growing divide between the wealthy and the poor in China and that factory workers are not a growing middle class. They are in the poor. They are moving to the factories looking for work because there is little to be made in the farms in rural China.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

And there are still regular reports of abuses and companies being punished by Nike and other companies precisely because the companies don't want to change.

Right: other companies punish the manufacturers that abuse their workers. Apple looks the other way and tried their best to make everybody look the other way.

[ProfCrash]

The garment industry has gotten better about punishing bad practices not the electronics industry. And I still believe that while there have been some improvements they are mainly cosmetic and are just enough to make people feel better about buying running shoes made in China. Heck, recent reports show that there are huge problems with the Fair Trade labels and that there is still a decent amount of slavery going on at farms that are a part of the Fair Trade programs. All they have to do is lie in reports or look clean when the inspectors are there and they are certified as being in compliance. I am sure that there are similar practices in factories and farms across the globe.

When people where going after the garment industry they focused on one or two of the biggies but it was well known that all of the factories were operating in the same way. The same thing is happening with the electronics industry. Apple is the big target but the same companies that produce components for Apple are producing components for Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Sony, and other electronic companies.

I have no problem with people pointing out what is happening. I have a problem with only targetting one company. The problem is larger then Apple, jsut like it was larger then Nike. Villify all of the companies not just the sexy one to target.

Amazon can choose to do business with other companies with better business practices but does not.

It strikes me that much of the shouting over this issue is irrationally directed at one comapny when there is plenty of blame to go around. Share the wealth.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Right: other companies punish the manufacturers that abuse their workers. Apple looks the other way and tried their best to make everybody look the other way.

Other than bias, do you have any evidence for that?
Any examples of Amazon, B&N, Samsung, etc punishing manufactures that abuse their workers?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Apple is the big target but the same companies that produce components for Apple are producing components for Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Sony, and other electronic companies.

But the biggest problems are in the factories that make Apple devices. Take the 137 people that died because they were required to use a toxic chemical to clean iPhone screens. The screens of the other phones are being cleaned as well, but no deaths occurred over those.

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Other than bias, do you have any evidence for that?
Any examples of Amazon, B&N, Samsung, etc punishing manufactures that abuse their workers?

You could at least pretend to read the post that I was replying to.

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

And there are still regular reports of abuses and companies being punished by Nike and other companies precisely because the companies don't want to change.

Or you could have read what I quoted in post #26:

''We could have saved lives, and we asked Apple to pressure Foxconn, but they wouldn't do it,'' said the BSR consultant, who asked not to be identified because of confidentiality agreements. ''Companies like H.P. and Intel and Nike push their suppliers. But Apple wants to keep an arm's length, and Foxconn is their most important manufacturer, so they refuse to push.''

and:

Many major technology companies have worked with factories where conditions are troubling. However, independent monitors and suppliers say some act differently. Executives at multiple suppliers, in interviews, said that Hewlett-Packard and others allowed them slightly more profits and other allowances if they were used to improve worker conditions.

[ProfCrash]

(sigh)

OK. So you want to put this all on one company, as do other folks. So it is all Apples fault and there are a few good guys that Apple should emulate.

Bad Apple. Bad Apple. You are satan.

Never mind that there are companies, not HP and "others", who do the same thing.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

You could at least pretend to read the post that I was replying to.

A bunch of vague quotes doesn't count as evidence.
(Nor were any of the companies I mentioned, who are Apple's competitors in the tablet business, mentioned in those vague quotes)

[ucfgrad93]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Bad Apple. Bad Apple. You are satan.

It is about time you came to the proper conclusion.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

It is about time you came to the proper conclusion.

What can I say, I am a slow learner. After all, I still use a Kindle and we all know that Amazon is the satan of the e-reader world. (shrugs)

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

A bunch of vague quotes doesn't count as evidence.
(Nor were any of the companies I mentioned, who are Apple's competitors in the tablet business, mentioned in those vague quotes)

You were asking for evidence for what I said here:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Right: other companies punish the manufacturers that abuse their workers. Apple looks the other way and tried their best to make everybody look the other way.

I was replying to ProfCrash's statement that there are reports of other companies punishing the manufacturers for their work conditions. I didn't think that I needed to give proof when I am agreeing with someone, but it happened that I had previously quoted the article with statements from different sources saying that other companies push the manufacturers to get better working conditions.

When it comes to the companies that you mentioned, what exactly do you want to compare? They didn't have deaths caused by working with toxic solutions for screen cleaning. Do you want to know their response to something that didn't happen?

[Andrew H.]

(Reuters) - Working conditions at Chinese manufacturing plants where Apple Inc's iPads and iPhones are made are far better than those at garment factories or other facilities elsewhere in the country, according to the head of a non-profit agency investigating the plants.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81E1FQ20120215

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81E1FQ20120215

A non-profit agency that Apple joined.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

(sigh)

OK. So you want to put this all on one company, as do other folks. So it is all Apples fault and there are a few good guys that Apple should emulate.

Bad Apple. Bad Apple. You are satan.

Never mind that there are companies, not HP and "others", who do the same thing.

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

It is about time you came to the proper conclusion.

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

What can I say, I am a slow learner. After all, I still use a Kindle and we all know that Amazon is the satan of the e-reader world. (shrugs)

I've been reading this wondering how long it would take, lol!

Not that I disagree with you...but how dare you try and be honest and fair about a world wide and multi-company issue??!

It's all apple, [expletive] it!