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Old 05-14-2017, 08:10 AM   #16
DiapDealer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
But perhaps make life easier for them by making the dummy data something like 'insert book name'? Similarly for other required fields.
If they don't know the values are editable (though why values in a Metadata Editor wouldn't be editable, I'll never know), then I fail to see how changing the dummy value would help.

Though now that I think about it, changing the "[no data]" placeholders to "[double-click here to change this value]" just might be enough to jump start newbies.
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:13 AM   #17
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Well, I'm no technophobe, but I do find the new method of creating metadata tricky. Perhaps pre-populate the required fields with YOUR TITLE HERE, YOUR AUTHOR HERE etc.? Only the compulsory fields need to be shown. Advanced users can always go to Code View and edit other ones in manually.

Yes, I guess I'm really asking for the old, simple way back. Maybe with a note at the bottom of the page reminding us that less common entries can be added manually. Or perhaps just switch in the old way when in EPUB2 mode.
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
Yes, I guess I'm really asking for the old, simple way back. Maybe with a note at the bottom of the page reminding us that less common entries can be added manually. Or perhaps just switch in the old way when in EPUB2 mode.
That's not going to happen. Other than some small tweaks, the existing metadata editor is here to stay--and will use the same interface for both EPUB2 and EPUB3.
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:19 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Though now that I think about it, changing the "[no data]" placeholders to "[double-click here to change this value]" just might be enough to jump start newbies.
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Old 05-14-2017, 01:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer
Though now that I think about it, changing the "[no data]" placeholders to "[double-click here to change this value]" just might be enough to jump start newbies.
I would appreciate this. Everyone is a newbie at one time or other.
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
We have quite a few users who are scared of code, and prefer to edit their ebooks in Book view.
Such users, if they use Windows, might prefer to edit the metadata with the EPub Metadata Editor program. I don't use it myself, however I get the impression it's quite popular and well supported by its originator.

Maybe it could even be wrapped in a Sigil plugin.

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Old 05-18-2017, 02:31 PM   #22
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[IMG]G:\Sigil-0.9.8_Win7 Ultimate.jpg[/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Not true. I edit metadata with Windows 7 Ultimate all the time.

I also can't see your image with my browser.
This is what I see:Click image for larger version

Name:	Sigil-0.9.8_Win7 Ultimate.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	108.8 KB
ID:	156827
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A1_Priest View Post
This is what I see:
Yes. As others have already noted: that IS the metadata editor. Highlight entries with the mouse and click "Remove" to delete entries. Add new entries by clicking "Add Metadata". Add properties to existing entries by clicking "Add Property". Modify existing data by double-clicking in its "Value" Field. Why do you believe that it's not working?

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Old 05-19-2017, 01:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Yes. As others have already noted: that IS the metadata editor. Highlight entries with the mouse and click "Remove" to delete entries. Add new entries by clicking "Add Metadata". Add properties to existing entries by clicking "Add Property". Modify existing data by double-clicking in its "Value" Field. Why do you believe that it's not working?
This newer Metadata Editor has been bugging me for quite a while now, but I couldn't put a finger on it (besides just being very frustrating to use).

I woke up from a nap today and I think I put a finger on a few other angles.

I think the BIGGEST enhancement would be hiding a lot of the "dc:technical-speak".

Let me lead everyone through a journey though...

First of all, a pic of the old editor:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilMetadataTitle[Old].png
Views:	27
Size:	10.2 KB
ID:	156854

#1: Easy Access

Old Sigil

You clearly had a distinct section for the important metadata that MUST belong in every EPUB:
  1. Title
  2. Language
  3. (Author isn't a MUST, but 99.9% of the people using Sigil would be adding this)

Those three important choices were treated differently from the rest, and it was clear AT A GLANCE to see if they were missing + wrong.

And remember Average Joe. They can EASILY see those two boxes + a dropdown.

Side Note: The Title/Author/Language was also in a consistent location, no matter which book you opened. Very helpful. Especially when dealing with lots of books from different sources (see horror image at the end of the post).

New Sigil

Now you are an Average Joe and open it:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilBlankMetadata[New].png
Views:	19
Size:	4.4 KB
ID:	156850

I have zero guidance. Looks like a giant blank box. I have no clue what any of this stuff is. It looks alien.

#1.5: Very Easy Language

Old Sigil

Language was actually in a human-readable dropdown!

Click image for larger version

Name:	LanguageDropdown[Old].png
Views:	19
Size:	8.9 KB
ID:	156844

If I was working on an Abkhazian book, I click the dropdown, scroll to the whichever language I need, and BAM, there it is.

New Sigil

Again, imagine Average Joe. You have a blank screen written in alien.

Only word I understand on this thing is "language", but what the heck is "dc:language"?

Well I might as well click the first button on the screen.

I actually click "Add Metadata" and stumble upon Language in the list:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilAddMetadata[New].png
Views:	21
Size:	6.1 KB
ID:	156848 Click image for larger version

Name:	LanguageDropdown[New].png
Views:	21
Size:	5.7 KB
ID:	156843

This is great, very similar to the old dropdown! Now I pick Abkhazian:

Click image for larger version

Name:	TwoLanguages[New].png
Views:	17
Size:	4.3 KB
ID:	156858

Uh oh, now there are two "dc:language"s...

* * * * *

What would I do as a technical person? I instinctively just jump right to the box next to "dc:language" + manually type in the HTML lang code.

I sure as heck have no idea that Abkhazian is "ab" (or I may just completely botch typing it in because I have fat fingers). So instead, I would go looking it up here:

https://www.w3schools.com/tags/ref_language_codes.asp

* * * * *

Side Note: The old dropdown was also human-readable AT A GLANCE. What if I come back to this book two months from now?

Quick!

dc:language "ae"



In new Sigil, if I was staring at a giant list of metadata and saw "ae", my eyes would gloss right over it. (See horror image at the very end)

In old Sigil, you would see "Avestan" in the Language dropdown:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Avestan[Old].png
Views:	15
Size:	9.5 KB
ID:	156842 Click image for larger version

Name:	Avestan[New].png
Views:	11
Size:	7.9 KB
ID:	156841

#2: Human Readable

The old one hid a lot of the "dc:technical-speak".

Old Sigil

Step 1: Typed in Title + Author in their boxes.

Add Basic:

Step 2: Press "Publisher"? "Publisher" appears right next to the box.
Type it in the box.

Step 3: Press "Rights"? "Rights" appears right next to the box.
Type it in the box.

Add Role:

Step 4: Press "Artist"? "Artist" appears right next to the box.
Type it in the box.

Step 5: You pick something real obscure like "Programmer"? "Programmer" appears right next to the box.
Type it in the box.

Click image for larger version

Name:	PublisherRightsArtist[Old].png
Views:	14
Size:	6.3 KB
ID:	156846

Okay, I finally figured out all the stuff:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilMetadataHumanReadable[Old].png
Views:	16
Size:	10.3 KB
ID:	156853

New Sigil

Add Metadata:

Step 1: "Publisher"? "dc:publisher" appears right next to the box.
Step 2: "Rights"? "dc:rights" appears right next to the box.

Okay, those are understandable at least, but the "dc:" is a little scary...

- - - - -

Add Property:

Step 3: Press "Add Property".

As an Average Joe, this menu IS complete gobbledeegook:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilAddProperty[New].png
Views:	20
Size:	4.3 KB
ID:	156849

(Heck, even for me it is hard to understand and I know the specs.)

Let us say he actually DOES figure out what he wants is found in "Role". Oh crap:

Click image for larger version

Name:	PublisherRightsArtist[New].png
Views:	17
Size:	4.8 KB
ID:	156845

I accidentally had dc:title highlighted and it added some stuff.

Okay, deep breaths Joe! Deep breaths! Now how the F do I add a Programmer?

Say what? You want me to press:

- Press "Add Metadata"
- Press "Contributor"
- Left Click on the new "dc:contributor" box to make sure it is highlighted
- Press "Add Property"
- Press "Role"
- Press "Programmer"
--- opf:role "prg" shows up

What? WTF is "prg"?

Finally, you may finally get this:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilMetadataHumanReadable[New].png
Views:	19
Size:	8.0 KB
ID:	156852

Compare that to the old Sigil (and I didn't even expand the dropdowns in New Sigil [see horror image at very end]).

Side Note: And again, imagine you are coming back to this EPUB two months from now. You have absolutely NO CLUE what "opf:role prg" stands for.

#3: Fitting to the Window

We all know about those absolutely giant descriptions Calibre shoves into books... :P

Here is Old Sigil vs. New Sigil:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilOverflowingMetadata[Old].png
Views:	19
Size:	15.5 KB
ID:	156856 Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilOverflowingMetadata[New].png
Views:	19
Size:	10.4 KB
ID:	156855

Now both are really crappy when trying to edit these behemoths, but at least the old Sigil squished it horizontally so it was all readable AT A GLANCE.

Being able to edit such large ones would be a helpful tweak.

Currently the new Metadata Editor has the giant horizontal bar that you have to use to even READ the thing... plus it makes navigating a pain. Sometimes adding in a new Property/Role and the bar shifts to the right by itself.

At that point, I just edit directly in the content.opf file.

#4: Alternating Lines/Something Between Distinct Metadata

It was clear seeing what was associated with what in the old Sigil.

In the new Sigil, it can quickly become a mishmash (see horror image at end):

Click image for larger version

Name:	SampleBookMetadata[Old].png
Views:	18
Size:	10.2 KB
ID:	156847 Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilDifferentOrderMetadata[New].png
Views:	18
Size:	9.3 KB
ID:	156851

Also, did the highlighting in the new Metadata Editor get lighter? Maybe it's the missing lines between rows? I must admit, I thought there WAS no alternating colors in the new editor until I saw the little thumbnail of my PNGs. But in Old Sigil I could tell rows apart perfectly.

Side Note: Did you see what I did there with the Title/Author/Language? :P

Finale

I think we can boil it down to two of the largest changes:

1. Get rid of the "dc:technical-speak" and go back to human-readable.

MAYBE you could click on the human-readable name, and you get access to the dc:stuff if you needed to manually tweak it for some reason.

2. Put the 2 MUST HAVES (or 3 if you include Author) in a prominent+consistent spot. They are going to be in every single EPUB no matter what.

Maybe give them different color highlights and move them to to the top all the time to make them stand out. (Maybe RED if they are blank + GREEN if they are filled.)

* * * * *

Bonus Points: Now tell me, who is the Title + Author + Language of this book?

Click image for larger version

Name:	SigilVeryLongMetadata[New].png
Views:	23
Size:	13.3 KB
ID:	156857

Extra Super Bonus Points: Let me know what roles the other names are!

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 05-19-2017 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:49 AM   #25
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That last post was at the image limit, and I just thought I would add a wonderful mockup with lines:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Horror[Lines].png
Views:	27
Size:	13.0 KB
ID:	156859

Surprisingly, I think that little change makes it look like the boxes are actually editable! They look more like cells instead of... aliens. :P

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 05-19-2017 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:09 AM   #26
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You seem to be missing the following points:

1. there is a descriptive line of text at the bottom of each dialog window that describes every property or metadata value. It will tell you exactly what a Role is for example, what File-as is etc, etc. So eventually the new editor can be used to actually educate the user about metadata and its forms.

2. For epubs you create youself, the only 3 fields you see are title, language, and author just as before. So novice users should not get confused even with a dc: standard prefix. You only see other/additional fields if you actually add them yourself.

3. For epub3 you can have multiple titles of different types, multiple authors, multiple contributors, and you need to add properties to specify title type, contributor type etc.. So what belongs in a group at the top? How many titles do we allow at the top? How many authors? Why on earth should epub3 need a completely different interface than epub2? What about the even different set used by the upcoming epub 3.1?

4. If you do not know any Marc Relator codes, they are all easily generated and *described* in the dialog as you add them. Ditto for Languages. So if you are a novice and run into a Role property you do not understand, you can easily add and remove all metadata properties to get down to whatever set you actually do understand and want.

5. Many advanced users understand all this and they can then skip all of the dialogs and directly add the codes they use most frequently and know by heart making entry much faster for them without hurting flexibility or novice users who use/need the dialogs.

The bottom line is you will only see the properties and relator codes if you actually add them yourself.

So for a new book by a novice user, they will only see the 3 basic items. And by actually using the interface they will learn alot about metadata construction, but only if they want to.

For advanced users who do not need the hand-holding they can quickly achieve what they want without risk of messing up the content.opf.

Hope that explains the reasons behind the design choices made.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
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1. there is a descriptive line of text at the bottom of each dialog window that describes every property or metadata value. It will tell you exactly what a Role is for example, what File-as is etc, etc. So eventually the new editor can be used to actually educate the user about metadata and its forms.
Could descriptions be displayed at the bottom of the table, so if dc:creator/opf:file-as was the property currently highlighted in the table I would see this at the bottom of the table.

Provides the normalized form of the associated property for sorting. Typically used with author, creator, and contributor names.

BR
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