A more serious conversation

Valloric · 01-02-2011, 07:56 AM

Here's a rather long post I just pushed to the dev blog. Please read it and express your opinion here, or in the blog comments (preferably here).

[I'm being intentionally vague because I want you all to read it.]

DMSmillie · 01-02-2011, 08:50 AM

I'm relatively new to using Sigil, but have found it a really useful and reliable application, even if it doesn't have a "make all backgrounds pink" button or the application equivalent of a gold and papaya themed bidet.

(Excellent blog post by the way!)

If it helps a little to keep you sane, motivated and able to continue to devote time to actively maintaining and developing Sigil and keeping it on track, I say go for it, Valloric. A small addition to the Windows installer is a very small price compared to the potential benefits for users.

negiarcian · 01-02-2011, 08:50 AM

Yes, and BTW first thing I did after downloading Sigil was to go and get FlightCrew. Would be nice to be offered the option for FlightCrew when installing Sigil.

kiwidude · 01-02-2011, 08:57 AM

Haha, very amusing post and well written.

I don't have an issue with the installer change personally. Whatever it takes to keep the Sigil development rolling along. And yeah I specialise in features that only mean something to me - that's why I love that in Calibre they can be written as plugins that only people who want the feature download it.

However that does require the app being engineered in a specific way, and plugins can only do "so much" so you still have to drive the core of the application for the masses. So my vote is go for it and steer the good ship Ligis as long as you can...

KevinH · 01-02-2011, 10:55 AM

Hi Valloric,

Burn out is a very serious problem for open source developers. I got involved porting the Java JDK 1.0 to Linux PowerPC and later Linux Intel. I got so stressed out over the JCK nonsense I basically gave up. I used to volunteer for the PowerPC Linux on Mach Kernel project (a precursor to Mac OSX on Mach kernel) eventually had to give things up (and Apple closed that project down). I used to volunteer patches for the Linux PowerPC kernel, glibc, etc and some drivers but gave that up. I used to volunteer for the OpenOffice.org project and helped finish their first ports to Linux PowerPC and Mac OSX (under X11 only) implementing their com bridge model and then later helped create their dictionary (MySpell) but just keeping up with bug reports, the "thankless" comments and complaints, truly fried me to a crisp. It got to the point it started to interfere with my relationship with my wife and work and my kids and at that point I knew I had to stop (and I did for almost 5 years). Eventually, I moved to a model will I simply contribute patches to things I care about and use *only*, with no major stake in any one project.

So do "WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO" to keep your sanity, not burn out, and keep a happy, healthy life going forward. If that involves adding ads to the installer to any platform, simply do it. If that involves changing the project model to focus on (reasonable!) features for paying customers, do it. Anything you need to make you feel right about what you do.

Sigil is a wonderful project. No one here would want to see if fade away. Do what you have to for you (and start sleeping at night again). Everyone here understands.

weatherwax · 01-02-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

I'm relatively new to using Sigil, but have found it a really useful and reliable application, even if it doesn't have a "make all backgrounds pink" button or the application equivalent of a gold and papaya themed bidet.

(Excellent blog post by the way!)

If it helps a little to keep you sane, motivated and able to continue to devote time to actively maintaining and developing Sigil and keeping it on track, I say go for it, Valloric. A small addition to the Windows installer is a very small price compared to the potential benefits for users.

Couldn't say it better

(I'm not a developer but I handle change requests for our company's applications, and a lot of the blog post feels very familar)

Freeshadow · 01-02-2011, 11:55 AM

do it do it do it.
and if you find a similar way to squeeze from linux binaries do it too. (I use both)
Sigil is the best thing for its task awailable ATM and I'd call everyone complaining about any steps allowing you more profit than the donations out of it an absolute idiot.
I'm not sure if you share the idea, but I was always thinking that Sigil's evolutionary path would lead to something like kile or lyx for epub - and altough you certainly might be able to reuse OSS code from web editing software it 'd be a long way to go.

grab every penny you can with my best wishes - Sigil 's worth it

Valloric · 01-02-2011, 11:55 AM

For now it seems there's broad support for this move. Thanks for that people, I appreciate it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by negiarcian

Yes, and BTW first thing I did after downloading Sigil was to go and get FlightCrew. Would be nice to be offered the option for FlightCrew when installing Sigil.

The next version of Sigil will come with FlightCrew integrated. That was the whole point of the FC project.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwidude

And yeah I specialise in features that only mean something to me - that's why I love that in Calibre they can be written as plugins that only people who want the feature download it.

However that does require the app being engineered in a specific way, and plugins can only do "so much" so you still have to drive the core of the application for the masses. So my vote is go for it and steer the good ship Ligis as long as you can...

A system where other devs can easily plug into the GUI or backend at runtime is trivial for applications written in interpreted, dynamic languages like Python in Calibre's case. For compiled applications it's much more difficult, as I'm sure you're aware.

Imagine having to compile a plugin for six architectures: Win x86, Win x64, Mac Intel x86, Mac Intel x64 and then Linux x86 & x64, where there's no way in hell you could provide binary plugins that would work on all the distros. And even for "simple" platforms like Windows, you would still have to match your compiler (and compiler version, and runtime library linked) to the ones used to build Sigil.

Basically you would have to provide sources for your plugins and ask the users to compile them themselves in most cases. Few would know how, and even fewer would be willing to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinH

I moved to a model will I simply contribute patches to things I care about and use *only*, with no major stake in any one project.

I'm not against this practice at all, even though it might appear that way from the post. If random people come in with sensible patches, great, the more the merrier. You can't ask for or expect a larger commitment when you know just how much time it takes out of you personally. God no.

Even when the patches aren't sensible, it's not a problem if there's one dev who has an idea of what the project is about who's willing to say no.

The problems start when that dev stops working and suddenly, everything goes.

theducks · 01-02-2011, 12:25 PM

I may be one of the guilty add-feature requester

It is only a request based upon experience while doing something the I do (sort of the same process that trips up bugs

). I try and think if others might be using simalar process and find it useful. (there are many that fail that test and never get submitted). Some come from something I did that caused pain

that I wish to avoid in the future.

Maybe, I am the only one doing that (pink background) or may be there are more people that set a background to different colors. I can't know, So I fill out a request.

Maybe it gets votes. Maybe you see a pattern, of what they really want is a background color chooser

. (I know how to edit a CSS to do this, but that doesn't say a tool(bar) (plug-in) wouldn't be useful to many. )

You get to see the requests. You know how it fits in with what you have coded already (been there. Some decision 1000's of lines ago now blocks that path.

).
And maybe You go

I use Sigil every day. It is even easier than ever, since the "Edit with..." plug-in in Calibre got added.

Let me just say

Will I stop using Sigil even if you never add another 'feature'.
Probably no

Will I call you names (other that stubborn

) NEVER
If I hated Sigil or flightcrew it would be gone from my systems.

I hope you hang in there (even if you say NO to my suggestions).

Take a break. Have a brew.

DaleDe · 01-02-2011, 12:46 PM

Getting a little money through advertising is the American way I think. I don't mind the install options so long as the default is off. I hope the new installer can find my old installation instead of having to browse to it every time, or at least lets me easily change the drive letter.

Dale

etienne66 · 01-02-2011, 01:08 PM

I think your proposal sounds reasonable, but keep your PayPal tip jar open.

Etienne66

Toxaris · 01-02-2011, 01:15 PM

I have a very simple vision and opinion of this. I really like Sigil. Sure, some thing can be better and some options would be very nice. However, as it currently is, it is very functional. The things I miss I can do myself manually. In fact, I can do everything myself manually if I need to. Fortunately there is Sigil.

Sometimes when I need a program, I create it myself. I am in no way a programmer, but small programs I can create. Probably the code is awful, but it works. I do not have the impression nor illusion I can create something as Sigil.
However, when I am creating a program, I have a vision. I want to make the program as I would like it. Sometimes I take advice/requests from someone, but it is my program.

I totally get your blog and I agree completely. If you can find the time to create the program as you envision it, it would be great. I some of the request I have interest in could be incorporated, even better. If not, then not. It is still your program and you decide. If a request doesn't fit in your vision, tough luck. They can add it themselves if they really need it, but do not spend time on it. Your program, your decision. If they don't like it, they can always stop using it.

Why is it a great program? Because it is relative small and has not too many options. Yes, that makes it great. I always keep in mind a saying my Unix teacher told me. He said (probably not his own words) that programs in Unix can usually do only on thing, but that thing very well. That's why the programs are small and fast.

If you can justify the time required for this via the add in the installer, please do. I know from experience (small, insignificant programs...) how much time this can/will consume. If you need to add a add-banner in the bottom of the program, please do. If you need to change it to shareware or other form, please do. It is your program, your vision and your right. We are only users and users always want more and more without keeping in mind the big picture. Well, most users are not able to.

If you decide to stop, I would regret it. Not because I think the program is not workable now, but because I would love to see your vision of it. I will keep using what you created so far.

I agree with theducks, take a break if you need.

Valloric · 01-02-2011, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I hope the new installer can find my old installation instead of having to browse to it every time, or at least lets me easily change the drive letter.

I'll be writing a new Windows installer using Inno Setup. This should resolve a few annoying bugs from InstallJammer, which appears to be dying a slow death.

We'll see how it turns out.

pdurrant · 01-02-2011, 02:18 PM

I whole-heartedly support your proposed use of OpenCandy. Even if they eventually come up with a Mac version.

Danger · 01-02-2011, 05:49 PM

Honestly in my opinion... I really like Sigil and free is always good but everybody has to make a living. If that's what is going on and how you feel, open source will kill you or more likely kill Sigil. I'd be happy if you went closed source and started charging $30-$40 for the program, with say every major upgrade a fee of $20. You don't want to pay the upgrade fee... that's fine the program will keep working you just won't get any major features or bug fixes.

01-02-2011, 07:56 AM	#1
Valloric Created Sigil, FlightCrew Posts: 1,982 Karma: 350515 Join Date: Feb 2008 Device: Kobo Clara HD	A more serious conversation Here's a rather long post I just pushed to the dev blog. Please read it and express your opinion here, or in the blog comments (preferably here). [I'm being intentionally vague because I want you all to read it.]

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01-02-2011, 08:50 AM	#2
DMSmillie Enquiring Mind Posts: 562 Karma: 42350 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: London, UK Device: Kindle 3 (WiFi)	I'm relatively new to using Sigil, but have found it a really useful and reliable application, even if it doesn't have a "make all backgrounds pink" button or the application equivalent of a gold and papaya themed bidet. (Excellent blog post by the way!) If it helps a little to keep you sane, motivated and able to continue to devote time to actively maintaining and developing Sigil and keeping it on track, I say go for it, Valloric. A small addition to the Windows installer is a very small price compared to the potential benefits for users.

01-02-2011, 08:50 AM	#3
negiarcian Junior Member Posts: 5 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2011 Device: Kindle	Yes, and BTW first thing I did after downloading Sigil was to go and get FlightCrew. Would be nice to be offered the option for FlightCrew when installing Sigil.

01-02-2011, 08:57 AM	#4
kiwidude Calibre Plugins Developer Posts: 4,636 Karma: 2162064 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Oasis	Haha, very amusing post and well written. I don't have an issue with the installer change personally. Whatever it takes to keep the Sigil development rolling along. And yeah I specialise in features that only mean something to me - that's why I love that in Calibre they can be written as plugins that only people who want the feature download it. However that does require the app being engineered in a specific way, and plugins can only do "so much" so you still have to drive the core of the application for the masses. So my vote is go for it and steer the good ship Ligis as long as you can...

01-02-2011, 10:55 AM	#5
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 7,637 Karma: 5433388 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	Hi Valloric, Burn out is a very serious problem for open source developers. I got involved porting the Java JDK 1.0 to Linux PowerPC and later Linux Intel. I got so stressed out over the JCK nonsense I basically gave up. I used to volunteer for the PowerPC Linux on Mach Kernel project (a precursor to Mac OSX on Mach kernel) eventually had to give things up (and Apple closed that project down). I used to volunteer patches for the Linux PowerPC kernel, glibc, etc and some drivers but gave that up. I used to volunteer for the OpenOffice.org project and helped finish their first ports to Linux PowerPC and Mac OSX (under X11 only) implementing their com bridge model and then later helped create their dictionary (MySpell) but just keeping up with bug reports, the "thankless" comments and complaints, truly fried me to a crisp. It got to the point it started to interfere with my relationship with my wife and work and my kids and at that point I knew I had to stop (and I did for almost 5 years). Eventually, I moved to a model will I simply contribute patches to things I care about and use only, with no major stake in any one project. So do "WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO" to keep your sanity, not burn out, and keep a happy, healthy life going forward. If that involves adding ads to the installer to any platform, simply do it. If that involves changing the project model to focus on (reasonable!) features for paying customers, do it. Anything you need to make you feel right about what you do. Sigil is a wonderful project. No one here would want to see if fade away. Do what you have to for you (and start sleeping at night again). Everyone here understands.

01-02-2011, 11:55 AM	#7
Freeshadow temp. out of service Posts: 2,791 Karma: 24285242 Join Date: May 2010 Location: Duisburg (DE) Device: PB 623	do it do it do it. and if you find a similar way to squeeze from linux binaries do it too. (I use both) Sigil is the best thing for its task awailable ATM and I'd call everyone complaining about any steps allowing you more profit than the donations out of it an absolute idiot. I'm not sure if you share the idea, but I was always thinking that Sigil's evolutionary path would lead to something like kile or lyx for epub - and altough you certainly might be able to reuse OSS code from web editing software it 'd be a long way to go. grab every penny you can with my best wishes - Sigil 's worth it

01-02-2011, 12:25 PM	#9
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 29,785 Karma: 54830978 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	I may be one of the guilty add-feature requester It is only a request based upon experience while doing something the I do (sort of the same process that trips up bugs ). I try and think if others might be using simalar process and find it useful. (there are many that fail that test and never get submitted). Some come from something I did that caused pain that I wish to avoid in the future. Maybe, I am the only one doing that (pink background) or may be there are more people that set a background to different colors. I can't know, So I fill out a request. Maybe it gets votes. Maybe you see a pattern, of what they really want is a background color chooser . (I know how to edit a CSS to do this, but that doesn't say a tool(bar) (plug-in) wouldn't be useful to many. ) You get to see the requests. You know how it fits in with what you have coded already (been there. Some decision 1000's of lines ago now blocks that path. ). And maybe You go I use Sigil every day. It is even easier than ever, since the "Edit with..." plug-in in Calibre got added. Let me just say Will I stop using Sigil even if you never add another 'feature'. Probably no Will I call you names (other that stubborn ) NEVER If I hated Sigil or flightcrew it would be gone from my systems. I hope you hang in there (even if you say NO to my suggestions). Take a break. Have a brew.

01-02-2011, 12:46 PM	#10
DaleDe Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,470 Karma: 13095790 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Grass Valley, CA Device: EB 1150, EZ Reader, Literati, iPad 2 & Air 2, iPhone 7	Getting a little money through advertising is the American way I think. I don't mind the install options so long as the default is off. I hope the new installer can find my old installation instead of having to browse to it every time, or at least lets me easily change the drive letter. Dale

01-02-2011, 01:08 PM	#11
etienne66 Groupie Posts: 185 Karma: 9832 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Texas, US Device: Kindle 2, PRS-600 Black, PRS-650 Red, Adam w/ Pixel Qi(pre-ordered)	I think your proposal sounds reasonable, but keep your PayPal tip jar open. Etienne66

01-02-2011, 01:15 PM	#12
Toxaris Wizard Posts: 4,520 Karma: 121692313 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Heemskerk, NL Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura	I have a very simple vision and opinion of this. I really like Sigil. Sure, some thing can be better and some options would be very nice. However, as it currently is, it is very functional. The things I miss I can do myself manually. In fact, I can do everything myself manually if I need to. Fortunately there is Sigil. Sometimes when I need a program, I create it myself. I am in no way a programmer, but small programs I can create. Probably the code is awful, but it works. I do not have the impression nor illusion I can create something as Sigil. However, when I am creating a program, I have a vision. I want to make the program as I would like it. Sometimes I take advice/requests from someone, but it is my program. I totally get your blog and I agree completely. If you can find the time to create the program as you envision it, it would be great. I some of the request I have interest in could be incorporated, even better. If not, then not. It is still your program and you decide. If a request doesn't fit in your vision, tough luck. They can add it themselves if they really need it, but do not spend time on it. Your program, your decision. If they don't like it, they can always stop using it. Why is it a great program? Because it is relative small and has not too many options. Yes, that makes it great. I always keep in mind a saying my Unix teacher told me. He said (probably not his own words) that programs in Unix can usually do only on thing, but that thing very well. That's why the programs are small and fast. If you can justify the time required for this via the add in the installer, please do. I know from experience (small, insignificant programs...) how much time this can/will consume. If you need to add a add-banner in the bottom of the program, please do. If you need to change it to shareware or other form, please do. It is your program, your vision and your right. We are only users and users always want more and more without keeping in mind the big picture. Well, most users are not able to. If you decide to stop, I would regret it. Not because I think the program is not workable now, but because I would love to see your vision of it. I will keep using what you created so far. I agree with theducks, take a break if you need.

01-02-2011, 02:18 PM	#14
pdurrant The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠 Posts: 71,496 Karma: 306214458 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Norfolk, England Device: Kindle Voyage	I whole-heartedly support your proposed use of OpenCandy. Even if they eventually come up with a Mac version.

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01-02-2011, 05:49 PM	#15
Danger Evangelist Posts: 490 Karma: 1665031 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Vancouver Island, Nanaimo Device: K2 (retired), Kobo Touch (passed to the wife), KGlo, Galaxy TabPro	Honestly in my opinion... I really like Sigil and free is always good but everybody has to make a living. If that's what is going on and how you feel, open source will kill you or more likely kill Sigil. I'd be happy if you went closed source and started charging $30-$40 for the program, with say every major upgrade a fee of $20. You don't want to pay the upgrade fee... that's fine the program will keep working you just won't get any major features or bug fixes.