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Old 02-21-2020, 05:41 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Paperbackstash View Post
These are not worthy comparisons to what the articles have stated. There is a difference between setting up fire alarms and locking doors versus advising someone not have a "weak look" when leaving their house, or saying that they could prevent rape if they only were able to fight hard enough and escape in time. Some of these things are outside a person's control, especially if taken by surprise.

I get some of the points of what you're saying with a few of your posts, but I'm bringing to mind these articles in particular you linked can be harmful to victims who have experienced these crimes. Being a victim of a crime, especially a violent one, cannot always be prevented - in fact, in a majority of cases with violent crime the person is taken by surprise through no fault of their own. The majority of violent crimes, especially with assault, are not with strangers in dark alleyways with fog and ominous shadows.
Hum, well maybe if there were people constantly saying talking about how bad it makes them feel after losing their pet to a fire when someone else talks about how everyone should have a fire alarm and how talking about fire alarms is blaming the victim, then you would feel differently.

All sorts of bad things happen to people and frequent its because of nothing they did. There are people who study for years and years and have special training to help such people deal with the aftermath. They are called psychologist, psychiatrist and councilors. I leave such topics in their hands.
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:55 PM   #107
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Hum, well maybe if there were people constantly saying talking about how bad it makes them feel after losing their pet to a fire when someone else talks about how everyone should have a fire alarm and how talking about fire alarms is blaming the victim, then you would feel differently.

All sorts of bad things happen to people and frequent its because of nothing they did. There are people who study for years and years and have special training to help such people deal with the aftermath. They are called psychologist, psychiatrist and councilors. I leave such topics in their hands.
You keep bringing up the fire alarm, but I'm still not seeing a strong connection. I know you are not victim blaming anyone who loses their house (or pets) in a fire because they do not have a working fire alarm, I never said or insinuated this. Having a fire alarm is a good, preventative measure for obvious reasons.

The issue is that with some of your posts, and the articles you are linking to on victims are off-base, however, since most victims of those crimes mentioned don't even happen in the circumstances the so-called experts keep warning people about. The tips on them not attracting attention to become a victim in the first place does fall under victim blaming with the way these articles are written.

What does some of the articles I quoted even mean? How does someone appear tougher than they are in order not to attract attention if they are walking the streets? And now wearing too many layers of clothing is a bad thing that may attract rapists, too? This is a change from the past where we were told too provocative of clothing was the attraction. What do you think women should wear to avoid an attack as a preventative measure?

I'm genuinely curious, not just debating here. Do you agree with all the tips the articles were giving as being effective?
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:44 PM   #108
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Reading this article today about a woman and three small children incinerated by the ex-husband, I'm really struck by the contrast between the (Bourke) Maranguka Justice Reinvestment Programme and the "don't look weak" approach propounded in this thread.

Here is further discussion about the programme, which involves strong, consistent community support and intervention. Family violence is down 39%, and DV reoffending in over-26s down by nearly half.

So yes, a lot of violence can be prevented. But not by telling women to stop looking weak.

More here and here.

Last edited by meeera; 02-21-2020 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:08 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Paperbackstash View Post
You keep bringing up the fire alarm, but I'm still not seeing a strong connection. I know you are not victim blaming anyone who loses their house (or pets) in a fire because they do not have a working fire alarm, I never said or insinuated this. Having a fire alarm is a good, preventative measure for obvious reasons.

The issue is that with some of your posts, and the articles you are linking to on victims are off-base, however, since most victims of those crimes mentioned don't even happen in the circumstances the so-called experts keep warning people about. The tips on them not attracting attention to become a victim in the first place does fall under victim blaming with the way these articles are written.

What does some of the articles I quoted even mean? How does someone appear tougher than they are in order not to attract attention if they are walking the streets? And now wearing too many layers of clothing is a bad thing that may attract rapists, too? This is a change from the past where we were told too provocative of clothing was the attraction. What do you think women should wear to avoid an attack as a preventative measure?

I'm genuinely curious, not just debating here. Do you agree with all the tips the articles were giving as being effective?
I keep comparing using fire alarms with tips on trying to avoid crime because I see them as very similar. In both situations, you are doing things to avoid bad things from happening.

Do I agree with all the tips? No. Different situations require different measures. There are likely tips that are accurate for New York City that have no real meaning outside of New York City. Tips on how to avoid the attention of street criminals looking for money(which most of these are) are very different that tips on avoiding crimes like date rape.

To a certain extent, people bring old baggage into this discussion. The whole women should avoid wearing provocative clothing is a issue in that respect because the point isn't that women should not wear provocative clothing, it's more that you want to avoid standing out in a crowd. That's as true for men as it is for women. I haven't heard someone actually use the term provocative clothing in a self defense talk. They might talk about specific things like high heel shoes (limits mobility, though spike heels make a pretty nice weapon) but the provocative clothes thing was much more of a cultural reference from earlier times than it is something that is used in the industry. I'm sure there are people who trot that out, because anything that draws attention can make a difference, but really, it's likely equally true that if you are on a college campus and you dress like like your great aunt, you would also stand out. Predators look for what stands out, that's as true for people as it is for wolves.
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Old 02-22-2020, 09:07 AM   #110
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This article about Harvey Weinstein's attorney speaks to the subject of victim blaming:

http://digitaledition.courant.com/in...a-77e09f723603

Quote:
What Harvey Weinstein’s lawyer fails to grasp

Hollywood producer’s lead defense attorney says she never put herself ‘in that position’ to be sexually assaulted

We should talk about minute 24.
It’s the moment on “The Daily,” the New York Times podcast, when reporter Megan Twohey asks Harvey Weinstein’s lead defense attorney, Donna Rotunno, if she’s ever been sexually assaulted.
“I have not,” Rotunno answers. “I have not. Because I would never put myself in that position.”
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Old 02-22-2020, 09:35 AM   #111
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Old 02-22-2020, 09:41 AM   #112
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(Two posts combined)
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Originally Posted by pwalker8 View Post
I'm not advocating ways of "fighting crime", I'm advocating ways of avoiding crime, which is a very different subject.[..]

All sorts of bad things happen to people and frequent its because of nothing they did. There are people who study for years and years and have special training to help such people deal with the aftermath. They are called psychologist, psychiatrist and councilors. I leave such topics in their hands.
The original topic of this thread is Black History Month. In a nutshell, as I understand, it is to raise awareness of why our society as a whole needs to change their attitudes towards less racial injustice. A crime fighting effort, not an effort that will teach the minorities to just deal with it by avoiding crime.

Your efforts of teaching to avoid crime are noble and useful. I have not claimed otherwise. It can even work for both, potential victims and potential criminals. Positive reinforcement to show that there is a place, your dojo, that has no tolerance for bullying. The one offence I take is that you appear to suggest victims should come to your dojo to avoid becoming a victim again. That should always be a discretionary decision of the psychologist, psychiatrist or councilor.

Once you have been a victim, the emotional scars will never ever go away completely. There will always be that little voice in your head that will ask "What did I do wrong to deserve this?" For me personally, the thought occured to me to pick up some kind of Martial Arts. Not as a team building effort, but as a way for revenge. A very nasty, violent revenge that always ended up in dead and mutilated attackers. I found other ways to cope, afraid of having the tools in my hands (pun intended) to put the nightmares into reality.

Intellectually I am aware now why I may have been targeted, emotionally I always have doubts of what I could have done different. So no, victims already do enough self victim blaming, no need for an outsider to reinforce such thoughts.
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Old 02-22-2020, 02:49 PM   #113
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(Two posts combined)

The original topic of this thread is Black History Month. In a nutshell, as I understand, it is to raise awareness of why our society as a whole needs to change their attitudes towards less racial injustice. A crime fighting effort, not an effort that will teach the minorities to just deal with it by avoiding crime.

Your efforts of teaching to avoid crime are noble and useful. I have not claimed otherwise. It can even work for both, potential victims and potential criminals. Positive reinforcement to show that there is a place, your dojo, that has no tolerance for bullying. The one offence I take is that you appear to suggest victims should come to your dojo to avoid becoming a victim again. That should always be a discretionary decision of the psychologist, psychiatrist or councilor.

Once you have been a victim, the emotional scars will never ever go away completely. There will always be that little voice in your head that will ask "What did I do wrong to deserve this?" For me personally, the thought occured to me to pick up some kind of Martial Arts. Not as a team building effort, but as a way for revenge. A very nasty, violent revenge that always ended up in dead and mutilated attackers. I found other ways to cope, afraid of having the tools in my hands (pun intended) to put the nightmares into reality.

Intellectually I am aware now why I may have been targeted, emotionally I always have doubts of what I could have done different. So no, victims already do enough self victim blaming, no need for an outsider to reinforce such thoughts.
In general, we do not advertise our services as a place where you come to avoid being a victim again. We have younger students whose parents bring them to karate because they are picked on, which is a very different thing. We don't tell parents that we can teach your child not to be picked on. We tell parents that we work on confidence, social skills and becoming a leader. Yes, we work on things like stranger danger and bullying but it's not a primary focus.
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:08 PM   #114
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Yep, I'm aware of that. But slavery was universal in the ancient world, even in the pre-Columbian times. There's no getting around that fact. Can you make a movie about ancient Rome without the slaves? Perhaps only Disney could. And I'm pretty sure many, if not the most, of those Roman slaves were white.
And even in medieval times. In Europe some part of the population was tied to the land as serfs and the local lord of the Manor had complete control over them. On the other hand if a serf could run away and stay uncaught for a "year and a day" he was considered to be free at that point.
Spoiler:
As far as ancient times goes one whole book of the Bible "Philemon" is written to a slave owner. Both the owner (Philemon) and the slave (Onesimus) had become Christians and Paul wrote the letter on the behalf of Onesimus who had run away from his owner. I can't imagine the usual punishment for a runaway slave was pleasant back then. I put this part in a spoiler so as to avoid people thinking I'm trying to bring religion into the topic.
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Old 03-04-2020, 04:47 PM   #115
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And even in medieval times. In Europe some part of the population was tied to the land as serfs and the local lord of the Manor had complete control over them. On the other hand if a serf could run away and stay uncaught for a "year and a day" he was considered to be free at that point.
Spoiler:
As far as ancient times goes one whole book of the Bible "Philemon" is written to a slave owner. Both the owner (Philemon) and the slave (Onesimus) had become Christians and Paul wrote the letter on the behalf of Onesimus who had run away from his owner. I can't imagine the usual punishment for a runaway slave was pleasant back then. I put this part in a spoiler so as to avoid people thinking I'm trying to bring religion into the topic.
Oh, yes. Almost all of the native population in my country were serfs for several hundred years. The landowners were mostly Germans, later some Swedish and Russian nobles as well. The bourgeoisie was also mostly German. Most Estonians were serfs until the 19th century.
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Old 03-04-2020, 05:13 PM   #116
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I honestly had the same intentions, but with these articles, I couldn't resist adding my input.
It's a common impulse:

https://www.xkcd.com/386/

A friend of mine used to say "Not every thought that comes to mind needs to come bursting out." Not that even he could resist.

I try to stick to "Fleming's Law": "Live and let die."
Trying to educate the willfully dense it a thankless task. Especially when theres so much good stuff out on streaming.

For now, I'll just say Black History month is over and we'll have to wait a year to see what B&N's great marketing team cooks up next. That should be fun.
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Old 03-04-2020, 05:29 PM   #117
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It's a common impulse:

https://www.xkcd.com/386/
Every webforum and every comments page EVERYWHERE should have this eternal classic hardcoded into it, by law.
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Old 03-05-2020, 08:07 PM   #118
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LOL I love that image, I've seen that before and that can apply to all of us every once in awhile.
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