The Vent and Rant Thread

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I've seen a few episodes of Supersize vs. Superskinny; I don't know if it's American or UK or maybe even both, and they used stones and feet/inches for weight and length.

Weight in stones is UK, not US. They just use pounds.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

So it's partly metric, partly imperial, and the UK is 'making steady progress since the mid-20th century." I took that as slowly converting.

Almost all progress was made between 1968 and 1979. Everything is now metric and in decimal. Except for the very small number of exception you mention. The exceptions haven't changed for the past 40 years or so.

[cc_in_oh]

FWIW when gasoline prices passed 99.9 cents/gallon in the 70's some stations briefly switched to liters until their pumps could be upgraded to charge $1+.

In those days the economic incentives of standardizing arguably outweighed the costs, but rapid computerization made it a moot point...

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Almost all progress was made between 1968 and 1979. Everything is now metric and in decimal. Except for the very small number of exception you mention. The exceptions haven't changed for the past 40 years or so.

Why have they not changed? It's just one small thing left to do.

Strangely enough, when reading fantasy in English, I -highly- prefer the imperial system. When reading fantasy in English that uses the metric system which has happened only twice, IIRC, it felt like a translation from Dutch to English.

The giant hero should be 7 feet tall, not 2.10 metres.

Or... meters? I also can't get over the UK/US differences in spelling, nor the different words for some objects. In the last few years, I've noticed my spelling and word usage is a mix between UK and US, with the balance tipping towards one or the other depending on what books I'm reading and which movies I'm watching

[orlok]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Why have they not changed? It's just one small thing left to do.

Strangely enough, when reading fantasy in English, I -highly- prefer the imperial system. When reading fantasy in English that uses the metric system which has happened only twice, IIRC, it felt like a translation from Dutch to English.

The giant hero should be 7 feet tall, not 2.10 metres.

Or... meters? I also can't get over the UK/US differences in spelling, nor the different words for some objects. In the last few years, I've noticed my spelling and word usage is a mix between UK and US, with the balance tipping towards one or the other depending on what books I'm reading and which movies I'm watching

Oh, the UK version is always the correct one

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by orlok

Oh, the UK version is always the correct one

Only when it agrees with the Canadian one, of course.

As a transplant from the US, the differences in spelling took some getting used to. "ou" where the use would be "o" ("colour", not "color") were fairly easy. But I'm constantly getting caught by the "re" instead of "er".

[Katsunami]

Just read on one of the biggest job vacancy sites in the Netherlands that it is...

"... A great idea to put in some job application to become a programmer or a software engineer. There's lots of work in that sector, a shortage of people, and you don't need a diploma; most companies are happy to teach you the skills on the job, and if all else fails, there's always Google."

So that is the status of the job of software engineer nowadays, junk drain for anyone who doesn't have a proper job? You don't need an education, because you can just Google everything?

Now, that's all I needed to know to make me regret even more that I got into "the job of the future" 15 years ago.

And then, people keep asking why there are always so many problems with IT-related stuff in companies. If the above is actually TRUE and companies DO hire random people without a proper computer science education just because they're cheap, I can tell you why. If you hire junk employees who Google all of their stuff, you get junk software and/or infrastructure!

Yes, you can google an answer to some questions or look up documentation on a programming language or framework or whatever (I do too, because you can't know -everything- by heart), but you can't Google on the fly how to design a huge piece of software while you're doing it. You have to KNOW how to handle that. It's never going to work.

There's a huge discrepancy on the Dutch job market with regard to computer science.

Companies: Ask 75 skills, be acquainted with everything from systems programming and GUI design on the Web and everything in between, expecting people to know everything at every point in time, all the time...

The public: You don't need to know anything, you can learn everything on the job in a few weeks and Google the rest...

Realistic software engineers (like me): Both aren't true. Software engineers are people who know their stuff but don't know -everything- (you can't; you maybe could, in the 60's and 70's). We're trying to convince companies we know enough to do the job, and to convince the public that it's utterly stupid and impossible to try and start writing big software (enterprise-grade programs or bullet-proof firmware for use in factory automation for example) when you've never seen a line of code in your life, let alone have no education on how to design it.

I couldn't be happier if the government would put software engineer among the protected professions, just like architect. Nobody in their right mind thinks that anyone without an education in the field will be able to design a fracking building that has no structural problems. Then why does everybody think that those same people will be able to properly design a piece of software and expect it to have no problems and be maintainable?!

Making software engineer a protected profession would potentially solve a lot of problems in IT. Then, educate people to use stable, well known frameworks, libraries, and languages for their stuff, instead of trying to use the in-flux latest and greatest, or even trying to re-invent the wheel over and over again... (The profession is called "Software Engineer" and not "Software Experimenter" for a reason.)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Just read on one of the biggest job vacancy sites in the Netherlands that it is...

"... A great idea to put in some job application to become a programmer or a software engineer. There's lots of work in that sector, a shortage of people, and you don't need a diploma; most companies are happy to teach you the skills on the job, and if all else fails, there's always Google."

The notion that "most companies are happy to teach you the skills on the job" is wild fantasy, and has been as long as I can recall.

Take a look at the actual requirements listed in job postings. Given what I see these days, good luck on finding someone with half the Required skills, before we even reach the "nice to have" stuff below.

The current hotness over in the US seems to be DevOps. Once upon a time, folks in those positions were called Systems Administrators, but then the role started to expand. Yes, employers still wanted Systems Administrators, but the SysAdmin also needed to be a DBA (which used to be a separate job, or more than one in the case of a really big Oracle installation where there'd be a guy handling the logical database design, and another concerned with how the various database tables were actually placed on storage media.) And now SysAdmins are expected to write code too, and welcome to DevOps.

Making software engineer a protected profession would potentially solve a lot of problems in IT. Then, educate people to use stable, well known frameworks, libraries, and languages for their stuff, instead of trying to use the in-flux latest and greatest, or even trying to re-invent the wheel over and over again... (The profession is called "Software Engineer" and not "Software Experimenter" for a reason.)

Be careful what you wish for. What defines a "protected profession"? Who determines that, and decides who a member of the profession is? A government entity? That sounds here like a cure much worse then the disease.

And you couldn't know everything in the 60's or 70's either. An old friend is a PhD in Computer Science, and worked for Bolt, Baranek and Newman back when the Internet was still Arpanet and had a hand in its creation. He mentioned years back that it was no longer possible for him to know everything about the systems he worked on, beginning at the hardware level of the transistor and going up from there. It hadn't been possible for years (or even decades) before he made that statement.
______
Dennis

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

<expanding roles> ... and welcome to DevOps.

In the Netherlands, a software engineer working in factory automation (a "PLC Programmer") is now expected to be able to write the firmware for a machine, based on either a PLC (or a microcontroller for some devices), and also be able to write desktop, web, and phone/tablet applications to control said machine. On top of that, if something fails, you're often also required to be able to drive out to the customer and fix the hardware.

1. Programming the PLC and microcontroller: embedded software
2. Write desktop apps: application software, and the range tools is HUGE
3. Web software: HTML/CSS/Javascript/PHP etc, HUGE range of tools as well
4. Mobile apps: Android, iOS
5. Fix hardware on location: Mechanical Engineer

Yeah, sure... you're going to find all of that in one person.

I can provide you with 1, 2 and 3, if you give me some time to learn the system/language/libraries you are using. (I think that's fairly exceptional already, as they are as close to, and as far away from the machine as you can possibly get, and IMHO, can be considered three different professions.)

I *could* provide you with 4 if I had any interest in jacking around with mobile devices, which I haven't, and I *can't* provide you with 5, because I don't have the necessary education, and can't/aren't allowed to drive a car.

Be careful what you wish for. What defines a "protected profession"? Who determines that, and decides who a member of the profession is? A government entity? That sounds here like a cure much worse then the disease.

I haven't heard of many buildings falling apart in the Netherlands, so I think whoever defined Architect to be a protected profession should do so for Software Engineer as well.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

In the Netherlands, a software engineer working in factory automation (a "PLC Programmer") is now expected to be able to write the firmware for a machine, based on either a PLC (or a microcontroller for some devices), and also be able to write desktop, web, and phone/tablet applications to control said machine. On top of that, if something fails, you're often also required to be able to drive out to the customer and fix the hardware.

1. Programming the PLC and microcontroller: embedded software
2. Write desktop apps: application software, and the range tools is HUGE
3. Web software: HTML/CSS/Javascript/PHP etc, HUGE range of tools as well
4. Mobile apps: Android, iOS
5. Fix hardware on location: Mechanical Engineer

Yeah, sure... you're going to find all of that in one person.

I'm watching a variant of that now. An old friend finally lost patience with UPS systems, after his had heartburn, but there was no way to tell what the problem was from what the system said, and tech support couldn't help him either because they didn't know what he saw meant.

So he's leading a project to disrupt the space and produce an alternative to current designs. He's a pure software guy, and knows it. He can write the software that will run on a front end (currently something like a Raspberry Pi) that will be what the user will deal with. That will need to talk to a micro controller that will monitor mains power, determine whether there is a power fail and switch to battery, then switch back when power is restored, and monitor battery pack health and indicate when a battery in the pack needs replacement.

And an inherent concept is that it should be battery neutral, and allow different kinds of batteries to be used, and be user replaceable when needed.

One chap already signed on has 30 years as a power and signals engineer, and others are joining in, but the various jobs are specialist jobs, that need people in those specialties. Get down there on the bare metal and that tends to happen.

I haven't heard of many buildings falling apart in the Netherlands, so I think whoever defined Architect to be a protected profession should do so for Software Engineer as well.

In the US, that's a matter of licensing. An old friend decades ago got his architectural degree, but the way the regulations worked in the state we lived in (Pennsylvania, USA), he had to work for another recognized architecture firm as an associate for seven years before he could hang out his shingle and set up in independent practice. He didn't want to do that, so he set up as a general contractor and architectural consultant. He'd worked his way through school doing construction, and knew and had done most of the trades - carpentry, electrical work, plumbing, masonry... - required, so he was superb as the general contractor managing a project.

We had a conversation at one point, because he was writing articles for community publications on basic of home maintenance and renovation, and wasn't sure about claiming his architectural training. I told him he absolutely should do so, because it was his proof that he knew whereof he spoke, and his stuff could be considered authoritative.

But it's the same sort of thing as civil engineering and folks who build bridges - you are expected to be licensed and certified.

The problem with software engineering is that it's an emerging discipline. It wasn't all that long ago that software engineers were called "programmers". And the fact that it is an engineering discipline isn't as fully recognized as we might wish.

Engineering that deals with physical objects is easier to certify. What architects and civil engineers do hasn't changed that dramatically, There are new tools, materials, and techniques, but you still have to get the basic math right to design buildings that don't fall down and bridges that don't collapse. The values you plug into the equations may change, but you still need to know the equations.

That sort of continuing experience base just doesn't exist the same way for software, and can't. Instead, you get a process of Darwinian selection, and must lay your bets and take your chances on just which new hotness will gain traction and be an in demand skill.
______
Dennis

[issybird]

Technology rant thread, please.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by issybird

Technology rant thread, please.

Link please.

[Greg Anos]

See

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...292798&page=19

for continuation.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by issybird

Technology rant thread, please.

Sorry. Thought to post this as (yet another) job-market related rant.

[5thWiggleWife]

Originally Posted by 5thWiggleWife

Me too!

Summons to selection arrived this week.

I figure I’ll tell then the guy must be guilty. Why else would he have been arrested?

Update:

Went to court today - along with about 300 other people.

Airport-like security screening with the wands and X-raying of bags and such.

Herded into a BIG room to await registration. Registration took almost an hour.

Then we got to watch a video about how wonderful and fulfilling it is to sit on a jury.

Then we waited.
And waited.
And waited.

Around noon they said a Judge was coming in to talk to us. Odd since we were supposed to go to the courtroom to see him.

Long story shortened, due to scheduling of rooms, judges and cases, no new trials will start this week so we are all dismissed. Thanks for your service. Maybe we will see you again in 3 years.

Funniest part was there were about 25 people who brought letters in an effort to get out of serving. They were deferred to another date and sent home early. They are not considered to have done their service and will have to come back another time.

[wodin]

Never ever report for jury selection without a good book.