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Old 03-16-2021, 11:10 AM   #16
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Sorry puddin but its the perversity of the text input window to this board

here is a screen dump of what i saw following your dl link, it opens directly in its own reader it seems

https://ibb.co/5MhFrXn
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Old 03-16-2021, 11:13 AM   #17
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this msg got duplicated somehow

https://ibb.co/5MhFrXn
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Old 03-16-2021, 11:27 AM   #18
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@ robintes: No, only the HTML version is meant to open on screen and it's only for people not wanting to download. You are using a browser with either a plug in for PDF (which is for proofing paper), epub or kindle. We are not providing any embedded reader. We did look at an embedded PDF reader but it wasn't reliable or fast to load.
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Old 03-16-2021, 11:33 AM   #19
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Ok I am not skilled in these mechanical arts
How do I dl into my Kobo? to see a real Ereader version - which is what I wanted for the purposes of our discussion


More fiddling, too quick to click, i tried Rtclk save as which gave me an Epub on my pc which then went into Calibre. i had to convert epub/epub before it would go into Kobo properly and now the result is expected - proper job
https://ibb.co/R6CGvTN

so I got confused by the first downloads and how un friendly they appeared. just shows how the wrong dl can screw up the formatting and reading comfort

Last edited by robintes; 03-16-2021 at 01:28 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 03-16-2021, 01:23 PM   #20
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@robintes: You don't need to.
I'm sure almost every fiction with dialogue of books you have uses the same rules.

A new/different speaker is always a new paragraph. That is indicated either by extra vertical space or an indent only on the first line.
The dialogue can be prefaced or followed by a speech tag, or an action, that can name the person. He or she might be used when it is obvious.
The spoken dialogue is enclosed in ‘single quotes’ in most but not all UK books. Otherwise the “double quotes” are used. The vertical ' and " are only for typewriters, or text not entirely proofed. The ' symbol might also be used to mark syllables or in words transliterated from a different alphabet. The symbols for feet and inches are different. They are prime ′ and double prime ″

If there are only two people talking then identification by action/beats or speech tags may not be needed each time. Sometimes the next person is obvious because the current dialogue has used a name or title, then their dialogue doesn't need identified.

If there are three or more people talking, then every piece of dialogue needs identified. Not always a speech tag:

Jack slammed down the phone; “Well, that's it then, Jill.”
“What did the well owner say?”

Here there are no speech tags. But it's obvious which bits Jack and Jill said. You might put a ‘.’ and not ‘;’, but if it was:
Jack said, “Well, that's it then, Jill.”
Or
“Well, that's it then, Jill,” said Jack.
That's a speech tag, so there is a comma. Though ‘said Jack’ is thought to be obsolete. Most would have:
“Well, that's it then, Jill,” Jack said.

Dialogue should be short and interspersed with actions (beats) at times. The right margin should be ragged.
If a character is making a speech over several paragraphs then the intermediate ending ones don't have closing quotes.

Readers may not consciously know dialogue rules or how to write, but most will be dislocated when they are broken. Also no system will make poor dialogue better. Good dialogue and giving different characters their own voice is really hard. Pratchett does it so well that Magrat, Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax hardly need speech tags.

There are a few little difference between USA and British English (as by English writers particularly) in how dashes and ellipses are used. How lists are managed. But the basic way dialogue works in text is almost unchanged in 200 years on both sides of the Atlantic.
Note that other languages using Roman, Cyrillic or Greek alphabets use differing quote or punctuation mark schemes but are similar. Then as you move South and East they do it differently. Some Asian languages have adopted English systems for dialogue.

There are loads of other details.

How to download?
Is that a serious question? Do you really only use the Kobo Store via WiFi? You've never downloaded an ebook?
If you are on Windows, Linux or Mac, make sure your Browser application settings either only offer download or choose but never open automatically. Then it's easier to download. Separately the Browser will have a setting that is a fixed download location or choose each time.

Explore https://www.mobileread.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=132
and www.gutenberg.org for free legal public domain ebooks.
I have a directory (folder) called ebooks and one called ebooks_bought
You can transfer via USB, or install Calibre to manage ebooks. But it's a joke, you are kidding me?

Also you need to use Download for https://www.smashwords.com Loads of people actually use download with Kobo or Amazon store so as to have a backup. Other reasons too.

The ONLY differences between paper and an ereader (or app) for dialogue are:
1) On an ereader you can make the text bigger or smaller
2) On an ereader you might be able to change the margins
3) On an ereader you might be able to switch to left justified or fully justified
4) On an ereader you might be able to change the font. By default the Kindle does this.
5) If it's an App or Koreader on some ereaders, you can change how the paragraphing formatting works. Big vertical white space is poorer than a first line indent on a 6 inch screen.

Paper has a bigger range of fonts, but if it's smudged 9 pt on coarse paper, it's sad. Many fonts are trickier or more expensive for ereaders, or publishers don't embed them. Some apps and older kindles ignore publisher fonts anyway.

You can do fancier formatting than is easy on ebooks. Drop Caps, Small caps, text around images, tables, boxed text and footnotes on the same page either won't work or will only work on some apps and some ereaders. But no need for a detailed index at the back because search works. Mostly links within a book and sometimes to the internet work. The only way I know to do that on paper is a QR code and hope the reader has a smart camera phone.

Last edited by Quoth; 03-16-2021 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 03-16-2021, 01:54 PM   #21
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Phew!
thnx prof, thats a bunch of homework for the rest of the week

I was thrown by my initial dls. Ive now got it sorted and dont use Kobo desktop - its only a shop front

My first ereader was an expensive Sony 350 - a game changer when it came out 10 years ago, but I remebr problem reading Mick Herron spy stuff and it had lots of dialog running over many pages and i would lose the plot

But its all advanced so much since then but Im probably coming out of the dark ages where this Ebook medium is concerned

Does make me wonder if there is any future in leisure reading of books. Kids come out of school now with barely a grasp of the three Rs and never even heard of the Beatles

Yet why has JK Rowling broken all records? BTSOOM
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Old 03-16-2021, 01:59 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robintes View Post
To quote Quoth an excerpt from his pub Under the stone of destiny
moz-extension://132665c5-0ed7-461c-8c6c-82967b752a5c/reader.html?filename=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.corvidspres s.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsamples%2FUnder_the_Stone_of_D estiny_(sample)_-_Ray_McCarthy.epub

Q
“Ain’t got none,” responded Kevin. “Me and my brother is starving.”
“You should be in the Dalrinath City Institute for the Poor.” Barry was curious because the dirty clothes with the odd rent were expensive. The taller lad that had spoken looked just like… Someone he’d seen? The memory seemed evasive, elusive, he was sure a face in the newspaper.
“It’s full,” said Kevin, “anyways, it’s like slavery, we’d never leave. I don’t want to end buried in their cabbage patch.”
“I think you are being unfair, I’ve visited it and it’s not like that. Perhaps though you are bit old for it. You seemed younger at first. Where’s your parents anyway?”
“Me mum was a doxie and two days ago someone strangled her.”
“I’m Barry McKay,” he said, “just call me Barry. What are your names?” He thought this was very unlikely or it would have been mentioned last night in the Livery Stable. Murder was rare and prime material for gossip. There was something else, he thought. His thoughts seemed fuzzy.
“I’m Kevin and this here, my younger brother is Meg… Meggels.”
“Either your mother was very inadequate or you’ve been on the street a lot longer than two days. Meggels doesn’t much look like you either?”
“Maybe we has different dads.”
“Meggels?” What kind of a name was that? he thought after inadvertently repeating it.
“He don’t really talk, Mister Barry,” explained Kevin. “You know, upset about it all.”
UQ

Do you feel this is a suitable template for dialog - on an Ereader?

OBTW this is not intended as any form of criticism of the authors work, it was simple an excerpt by chance from one of the poster's Publications
I'm sorry, but what are you suggesting here? You have new paragraphs, as does the original, but they're block style, which is wholly inappropriate for fiction and a goodly amount of non-fiction, too. And bloody hard to parse, too, but given that the forum defaults to block-style...

This seems to have the same intention--new paragraphs--but I don't understand what the "template" is that you are creating here. ??? Or are you asking if the style that Quoth used, in UTSOD is what works?

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Old 03-16-2021, 02:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robintes View Post
Sorry puddin but its the perversity of the text input window to this board

here is a screen dump of what i saw following your dl link, it opens directly in its own reader it seems

https://ibb.co/5MhFrXn
Right, which is how it's meant to look.

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Old 03-16-2021, 02:06 PM   #24
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Hi H weve moved on from there as earlier posts explain.
in short Epubs should be read on your ereader not on a pc screen as the formatting may get screwed - and I cant enjoy a book on a pc which is why i blew some dosh on the latest KOBO
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Old 03-16-2021, 02:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robintes View Post
My first ereader was an expensive Sony 350 - a game changer when it came out 10 years ago, but I remebr problem reading Mick Herron spy stuff and it had lots of dialog running over many pages and i would lose the plot
Maybe bad formatting. I have Sony PRS-350 too. Bought for me S/H. The ebooks have smaller pages!
Need good reading glasses. But it connects to laptop & Calibre just like my Kobo Libra, the books look similar, though less text per page. Also can copy direct via USB like the Kobo.

It's still a nice ereader for a small pocket and better than my 6"
phone for epubs.

Lots of kids I know read books. The older ones all have eink ereaders.
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Old 03-16-2021, 03:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robintes View Post
Hi H weve moved on from there as earlier posts explain.
in short Epubs should be read on your ereader not on a pc screen as the formatting may get screwed - and I cant enjoy a book on a pc which is why i blew some dosh on the latest KOBO
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Is it possible that you've been downloading old Project Gutenberg books, that aren't fully formatted, like HTML versions, or "freebie" eBooks elsewhere? I've seen books that are simply horribly formatted and there are a LOT more of those than those that are done right.

What books are you viewing, exactly, that have this really bad formatting? You absolutely should not be seeing block-style paras all clumped together on any properly-created ebook.

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Old 03-16-2021, 04:57 PM   #27
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Frankly, I'm lost. I thought the initial post was an unrealistic suggestion about making dialogue easier to follow on an e-reader. Now it looks more like the original poster is unfamiliar with the conventions of written dialogue in the English language. Either way, I'm nonplussed.
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Old 03-16-2021, 04:59 PM   #28
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I think only badly formatted and badly written dialogue is hard to follow.
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Old 03-16-2021, 09:41 PM   #29
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If you're looking for well formatted epubs then I suggest looking here on MobileRead, most of them have been created with dedicated care. Plus they are free and you can use links to them as examples. (I'm not saying they are all perfect, but most of the ones I have downloaded have been excellent.)

Any new style of format or layout will be disruptive. Change is disruptive, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Cormac McCarthy's The Road gained some notoriety for breaking common conventions regarding punctuation, but a large number of people enjoyed the work anyway, proving that conventions are not everything. BUT the most important factor in all this is:

Learn the rules and accepted conventions first. Prove you can use them and understand why they are there, only then should you set about breaking them.
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Old 03-16-2021, 10:51 PM   #30
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Q
Now it looks more like the original poster is unfamiliar with the conventions of written dialogue in the English language. Either way, I'm nonpussed.
UQ

This must be a new marketing tool - Diss the paying Customer (Reader)

Its already been noted on this thread that Academics have largely ignored the need for Dialog construction. Its also been said that often Authors are careless or ignorant of basic Dialog rules and furthermore the hapless Reader is in fact quite flexible in following sloppy dialog UP TO A POINT

After that the plot gets lost and immersion broken. Its what I have found and its made worse by the nature of Ereaders and their shortened pages

So my OP was a wake up call to see if this new media could offer some improvements/innovations in the system. I'm encouraged to see that cages have been rattled and even dummies spat out

Its illuminating to note that we have two distinct parties to this discussion. On the luddite left we have the Publishers who have the benefit of overviewing thousands of MS per year complete with all their pros and cons, while on the restless right side we have authors of varying places in the great pecking order of selling success all jostling, individually isolated. with "me first" fervour.

I suppose we should also mention the Centre party - The Critics - the bane of both sides

Novel suggestion herein - using emoticons or even text colours to identify speakers

Some here are thinking out of the box

As the progenitor of HP salesmanship Alfred A Tack often said "Sell the sizzle, not the steak" and also "Your first 10 words are worth more than your next 100"

The beginnings of formulaic style taken up by.................

"It was the afternoon of my eighty-first birthday, and I was in bed with my catamite when Ali announced that the archbishop had come to see me."

In real life intercourse it seems "If you use more than 5 words in a sentence - you've lost 'em"
Have you noticed now that people no longer listen to you. They hit overspeak even before you finished your sentence. ME ME ME

So how would you get that style of parlance into dialog - its ever prevalent. Note how the more aggressive TV interviewers behave

This board seems largely composed of the LEFT so no point issuing a challenge on the above premise as Publishers dont write. The RIGHTers are too busy scribbling away in their lonely sheds to waste time on this anal subject

Feel free to krap on me from a dizzy height

Lung Chang
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