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Old 02-13-2024, 03:39 PM   #31
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Everybody's eyes are different. I wouldn't use an eink monitor because the refresh rate would be dreadful.
This proves that you have no idea; There is no such thing - the image is stable until it is changed
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Old 02-13-2024, 03:49 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ottischwenk View Post
This proves that you have no idea; There is no such thing - the image is stable until it is changed
And how long does it take to change the image? Even most web pages have animations that are painful to watch on eInk never mind an actual video.
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Old 02-13-2024, 04:10 PM   #33
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This proves that you have no idea; There is no such thing - the image is stable until it is changed
Well, it's a mechanical bistable display. It is only "refreshed" as a last resort. Admittedly DLP is also mechanical (nano sized flexing mirrors), but not bistable.

Any modern screen other than DLP* with flicker is either poor quality, wrong settings or actually faulty.

[* A single chip DLP with a colour wheel is a bit mad if you move suddenly. If you want a really flicker free projector using DLP it has to be the 3 chip kind. Non-DLP projectors such as LCD or LCoS are identical refresh to a flat panel LCD. Some poor quality flat panel LCD may have flicker from the backlight, as some poor quality eInk have from a too cheaply done frontlight.]

Last edited by Quoth; 02-13-2024 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 02-13-2024, 04:17 PM   #34
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And how long does it take to change the image? Even most web pages have animations that are painful to watch on eInk never mind an actual video.
Scrolling is pretty nasty on eink. I did like the way the old Kindle DXG browser paginated the page. You can on a regular browser use a predefined page size same as window and then print preview. All browsers ought to have an optional page mode, even if not on eInk.

Anyone know which Android free Solitaire is usable (or even works!) on Android 8.1 eink?
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Old 02-13-2024, 04:32 PM   #35
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And I would prefer a glossy (yes, glossy) monitor because I'm in a semi dark room so reflection isn't a big issue and glossy gives you the best contrast and color saturation. Matte monitors just make everything duller. You still get reflection, it's just blurry reflection because everything is a bit blurred
Glossy doesn't improve contrast and color saturation. That's marketing from glossy panel makers. It does look nice in a showroom.

Matt screens only make content duller and have blurry reflections, and also blur the content, if too cheaply or ineptly done.

If you see any blurry reflection even on a badly done desktop screen, the lighting in the room is badly wrong.

Obviously on a handheld device the lighting issue isn't so simple.

I will do photos later. I have also laptops with stupid screens and and discarded desktop screens I'd not use. All the CRTs are gone.
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Old 02-14-2024, 01:47 AM   #36
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And how long does it take to change the image?
With Boox BSR it goes up to ~55 msec - completely sufficient for e.g. scrolling.
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Old 02-14-2024, 03:58 PM   #37
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With Boox BSR it goes up to ~55 msec - completely sufficient for e.g. scrolling.
That's not a full quality refresh (really a screen update). Some 1920s mechanical TVs* could do 22 fps (progressive), thats 45.45ms and that was full grey scale mono. True full gamut screen update is maybe 100ms to 150ms on eink.

The eink is a bistable screen and has no refresh rate at all compared to other true graphic displays. They have a nominal video frame rate of 25 fps to 250 fps. Older CRT systems could only do interlaced (writing odd or even line lines in each field): 50 fields per second = 25 frames per second or 60 fields per second = 30 frames per second. Cinema originally did 12 to 24 fps and eventually standardised on 24 fps, with each frame shown twice in the cinema. The 50 field interlaced simply speed the 24 fps to 25, but showing alternately odd or even lines (377 total or 576 total). NTSC 60 field interlaced uses 3:2 pull down which means there are video fields (240 x 2 = 480 lines) from two different film frames so horizontal pans or movement creates a nasty comb artefact. Thus the USA & Japan addopted component and progressive DVD players not needed in 50Hz regions.

The VGA is really 640 x 480 @ 60 fps progressive based on NTSC due to IBM PC low cost design. The early 1024 x 768 screens used very flickery 43 Hz interlaced.

A CRT in progressive mode has to continually redraw the screen, so the pixel, screen and frame rate are the same, 50 to 100 Hz., or 10ms to 20ms.

Plasma is semi-stable and slow to change a pixel.

OLED, LCD, LED, DLP etc are usually run at a native video frame rate of 24Hz to 250 Hz (about 4ms to 41.67ms per frame). but the time to update a frame or pixel can be 0.2ms to 4ms, unlike a CRT, thus with a static image there can be no perceptible flicker no matter what the frame rate is, unlike CRT or Plasma.

Flicker on cheap LCD is usually the backlights.

So 55ms is garbage even compared to a 1936 CRT (20ms). And that might be a special ignore all the in-between pixel levels, akin to "regal mode". Full gamut eink update is about 150ms on newest panels.

Gallery and Gallery 3 is bistable, but other than that it's not related to Triton or Kaleido eink which is a regular mono panel with a filter. Gallery 3 needs 1500ms for a true screen update.

I'd want a wordprocessor and browser that paginates for eink, but they all scroll. I'd love to page MS Word or LO Writer, but it doesn't actually do it like a PDF viewer can.

You can only page, Powerpoint, PDFs and ebooks etc on a desktop PC, so even mono eink is a bad experience compared to high end CRT screens or LCD panels with decent flicker free backlights.

Eink is great for paginated text.

[* Mirror based, not the Nipkow disk, which was a late Victorian invention used by Baird]

Last edited by Quoth; 02-14-2024 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 02-14-2024, 07:30 PM   #38
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The thing is lcd's are flickering. Even at extremely high refresh rates, and at static page, they constantly refresh. Eink refreshes only when content on the page changes, and even then only in the area that was changed.
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Old 02-14-2024, 07:50 PM   #39
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The thing is lcd's are flickering. Even at extremely high refresh rates, and at static page, they constantly refresh. Eink refreshes only when content on the page changes, and even then only in the area that was changed.
No, LCDs do not flicker unless the screen or backlight is poor quality. I've tested this also with a decent DSLR at different speeds. The refresh rate is not the same as flicker and even refresh rate can be high enough for creatures like cavies. The refresh or frame rate is only significant for video or action games on decent LCD panels.

You should study what refresh means and how current quality LCD panels (often called LED for marketing reasons) work.

Eink is very good for a static page of text. It's poor even at localised updates with flicker and ghosting. It flashes on a complete page refresh that's needed to clear ghosting as the cells have to be all reset.

If the screen is needing updated for animation (which isn't just GIFs, but audio graph in Audacity), scrolling, preview changes, video etc, the eink is nearly useless. It's also useless to preview images, edit images, CAD editing, flow chart editing etc.

The eink is brilliant for reading ebooks, PDFs, static powerpoint slides, completed flow charts and schematics. Abysmal and flickery for content creation.

I've typed on eink and tried games, flow chart editing etc.

Last edited by Quoth; 02-14-2024 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 02-15-2024, 02:01 AM   #40
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No, LCDs do not flicker unless the screen or backlight is poor quality. I've tested this also with a decent DSLR at different speeds. The refresh rate is not the same as flicker and even refresh rate can be high enough for creatures like cavies. The refresh or frame rate is only significant for video or action games on decent LCD panels.

You should study what refresh means and how current quality LCD panels (often called LED for marketing reasons) work.

Eink is very good for a static page of text. It's poor even at localised updates with flicker and ghosting. It flashes on a complete page refresh that's needed to clear ghosting as the cells have to be all reset.

If the screen is needing updated for animation (which isn't just GIFs, but audio graph in Audacity), scrolling, preview changes, video etc, the eink is nearly useless. It's also useless to preview images, edit images, CAD editing, flow chart editing etc.

The eink is brilliant for reading ebooks, PDFs, static powerpoint slides, completed flow charts and schematics. Abysmal and flickery for content creation.

I've typed on eink and tried games, flow chart editing etc.
I find that refresh rate is noticeable in general use on an LCD screen. Especially when scrolling. 120Hz is much better than 60Hz, which is rather jagged and laggy in comparison. I would want something like a 25-27" 4K 120Hz screen. But last I checked some years ago they were really expensive. And 5K would be preferably anyway.

On the other hand I think that e-ink with BSR is good enough for scrolling text heavy websites on my Palma, so...
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Old 02-15-2024, 05:36 AM   #41
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I find that refresh rate is noticeable in general use on an LCD screen. Especially when scrolling. 120Hz is much better than 60Hz, which is rather jagged and laggy in comparison.
That would be a graphics/gpu driver issue.

Search web for tearing scroll. Some combinations of browser and driver were bad.

Last edited by Quoth; 02-15-2024 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Tearing
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