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Old 07-27-2014, 06:02 PM   #16
pdurrant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saoir View Post
How come it is a small 's' after a full stop ?
Because the full stop is part of the quoted speech, not part of the sentence that includes 'said Frank.'
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saoir View Post
Sorry to be pedantic .. but is everyone agreeing that the second version is 100% correct ?

“It is only a theory sir. Maybe one of my crazier ones I admit”, said Frank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
That one is wrong everywhere if Frank has come to the end of his sentence.

Assuming that Frank has finished his sentence it should be

“It is only a theory sir. Maybe one of my crazier ones I admit.” said Frank.
Both of these are incorrect in the US. As jandrew implied above, the correct sentence would be:

“It is only a theory sir. Maybe one of my crazier ones I admit," said Frank.

In the US, a comma replaces a period at the end of a quote if it's followed by a "said someone" clause. And the comma most definitely comes before the close quote.

OTOH, if the sentence ended with a question mark or exclamation point, it would not be replaced by a comma:

"It is only a theory sir. Maybe it's one of my crazier ones?" asked Frank.

or:

"It is only a theory sir. One of my crazier ones!" said Frank.

with a small "s" for said and yes, there should be a comma after theory, also.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:50 PM   #18
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But this is not (commonly) done in British English.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
But this is not (commonly) done in British English.
Granted. But the double quotes smacked of US English to me.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:58 PM   #20
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Someone PM's me a nice link here that seems to make it very digestible. I'm hoping to god it's British English ....
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:49 PM   #21
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Well .... I've just spent four hours correcting, and am all done

On the positive ...
I now have this quote punctuation drilled into my head forever.
I found a lot of unclosed quotes and other little bits.

On the negative ...
I am knackered.
No more writing today 196 words written
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Old 07-27-2014, 09:17 PM   #22
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Congratulations. I think you'll find it was worth it, knackered and all.-)
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:11 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Note that punctuation of direct speech also depends on whether you're writing for the US market or not.

The US style is to always put the full stop or comma inside the quotation marks.
The non-US style is to use the logic of the text to decide the placement.

US:
“It is only a theory." said Frank.
“It is," said Frank, "only a theory."

non-US:
“It is only a theory." said Frank.
“It is", said Frank, "only a theory."

Note that the 'said' isn't capitalised just because the direct speech itself is a whole sentence. There's no need to change the full-stop to a comma.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/wo...-direct-speech fives a good summary.
To repeat what I've said in an earlier thread:

The issue of punctuation inside or outside quotes is also one that varies with formal vs informal. Yes, the formal British rules say the comma should go outside unless it is part of what is quoted, but in novels this doesn't happen for dialogue (a distinction I've yet to see made in style guides, but maybe I've been reading the wrong ones):
Quote:
"Not as far as I can remember," she said.
(From Bulldog Drummond by Sapper, 65th edition published by Hodder and Stoughton, London, in 1943)

This style appears in both British and American texts. The comma in the above is not part of the quoted speech (if anything it should be a period), but that's not what happens in published novels.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:16 AM   #24
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I'm more likely to be thrown by inconsistent style (or spelling) than the choice of one over the other.

But, it does have to be a recognized style.


I don't use Scrivener myself, but would it have been possible to use a search string to help with your editing? Or, did it take that long even with automated searching?
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:36 AM   #25
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I'm not sure why double quotes suggest English rather than US publishing. I just fossicked in my paperback shelves, and a spot check shows that my UK printed and published books are mostly single quotes, (but by no means all) while the USA ones are all double quotes. Admittedly my US sample is smallish.

eg: my Terry Pratchett UK editions are all single quote. On the other hand, "I. Asimov", Bantam US paperback, has double quotes. A Fontana (UK) Agatha Christie has single quotes, a Dell US Agatha Christie has double quotes, a UK Grafton (Panther etc) Georgette Heyer has double quotes.

I think it's a question of house style more than country.
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:38 AM   #26
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Single quotes certainly used to be used universally in British books, but I've noticed in recent years that more and more now use double quotes.
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:13 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
This style appears in both British and American texts. The comma in the above is not part of the quoted speech (if anything it should be a period), but that's not what happens in published novels.
Thanks. It's always a good idea to check actual documents. I see the same thing in the book I have to hand here. (Don't Panic by Neil Gaiman, published in the UK, 2002).

It does seem that replacing the full stop by a comma is what is often (always?) done.
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
It does seem that replacing the full stop by a comma is what is often (always?) done.
Indeed I think that is the standard. I was completely thrown by your first post in this thread - you had a link to a reputable source, but I just thought I had never seen it done the way you proposed.
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleshuffle View Post
Indeed I think that is the standard. I was completely thrown by your first post in this thread - you had a link to a reputable source, but I just thought I had never seen it done the way you proposed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Note that the 'said' isn't capitalised just because the direct speech itself is a whole sentence. There's no need to change the full-stop to a comma.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/wo...-direct-speech gives a good summary.
Having re-read my reference, I see that although it says a full stop can be used, in all the examples given a comma is used, even if the speech completes a sentence.

So I'm wrong in theory and practice on this point. Apologies.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Single quotes certainly used to be used universally in British books, but I've noticed in recent years that more and more now use double quotes.
How far back are you going, Harry? That 1943 Bulldog Drummond example was using double-quotes, and I have a 1927 Beau Geste that uses double-quotes. (The latter is technically an Australian edition, but I would have expected it to follow the UK source from which it was produced.) I haven't checked all my old hard-covers, but it seems to me that "universally" could be a bit strong.

I personally chose double quotes for dialogue because my own reading experience has been that single-quotes are occasionally confusing when possessive apostrophes are used within a sentence - especially in paragraphs where speech is interspersed with other narrative. (It can depend on the font and actual character used for apostrophes.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Having re-read my reference, I see that although it says a full stop can be used, in all the examples given a comma is used, even if the speech completes a sentence.

So I'm wrong in theory and practice on this point. Apologies.
This was something I spent a lot of time on before publishing my first book (one of the many forms of procrastination I found ). Happily, I have a very diverse collection of books here. I'd read most of the books but I hadn't remembered how they used punctuation, I had to go through and check them. Most of the older ones are UK or Australian published, but I have enough American ones that I was able to test some of the unsubstantiated claims I'd read in Internet articles on these subjects. It seems that theory and practice can vary quite widely.
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