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Old 12-19-2018, 06:11 AM   #1
jlemonde
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Post Do we have a chance to persuade Rakuten to implement a way to lend books to friends?

I've just been told that Nook and Kindle both have a way to lend book to other users, but yet does Kobo not have such a feature...

From a financial perspective can I perfectly understand that Rakuten are delaying the day where there are going to implement that because it implies that friends which all have a Kobo would buy books several times instead of sharing their purchases. But on the other hand, if you type in, in any web search engine, keywords like "Kobo share books" or "Kobo lend book to others", you would find amongst the first results pages which explain to you how to (very easily) break the Adobe Digital Rights Management (Adobe DRM) in order to get an epub free from limitations, which you can then give away and copy as many times you want, which is much more than what you initially wanted to do. Such behaviour makes that authors get much less paid for their work than they should, and resellers are concerned as well.

Thus I think that an official way to lend books to others should be implemented. This would avoid that people start removing the DRMs for the only sake to let their friends read a book they purchased. It could fight against piracy and make less pirated ebooks available on the www.

So, back to my question. Do we have a chance to convince Rakuten ? If we have, what steps should we go and whom should we contact first?

Thanks in advance for reading and considering this. If you have got further arguments, please comment with these as well.

Johannes
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Old 12-19-2018, 06:23 AM   #2
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PS, I have a few clues for further arguments, but I am not sure how to express them so that they do not feel like weak arguments.

Firstly, there would be the fact that you should own the books you buy, and thus be able to give them to whom you want, as you would with an actual paper book.

Then there would be this : https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=280479

And finally, there would be the fact that it could be one more positive aspect for selling Kobo e-readers since people are sometime (often?) asking themselves such questions before they switch from paper to e-ink. At least, this is why a few friends of mine bought a Kindle instead of a Kobo, although the Kobo has some interesting features the Kindle hasn't got.
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Old 12-19-2018, 06:58 AM   #3
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The Amazon Kindle method is a bit toxic.
One solution is to lend the eReader.

Be careful what you wish for as big publishers, not particularly the eReader makers, are the force behind DRM. I totally support copyright, but the USA DMCA is evil and DRM contrary to provisions of International copyright treaties and fair use. The continual extending of copyright expiry only benefits big corporations and is immoral greed. The usage of ebooks should be the same as paper books. The problem is that an industrial pirate can copy paper books but users have to loan the physical item. Industrial pirates have copied ALL media with DRM, it's a barrier only to ordinary people.
Not all eBooks on Amazon have DRM. None on Smashwords have DRM. Boycott DRM.
Meanwhile a cheapest eReader is about the cost of 15 decent books. Buy a second eReader if you want to loan books with DRM. Really other than people in the same household it's the most ethical solution.
Do NOT upload eBooks or "share" copies with random people.

"Firstly, there would be the fact that you should own the books you buy, and thus be able to give them to whom you want, as you would with an actual paper book."
If you "give" an electronic copy of ANYTHING to someone, you should delete the original unless it's out of copyright.

Note that promotional or "free copies", or copies bundled free with something are often subject to EXACT same copyright rules as bought material.

"before they switch from paper to e-ink."
They are still complementary. Like buying a DVD vs watching on subscription (Streaming or Broadcast). My eInk book usage is in addition to buying paper books. Actually paper books should have a unique one time download code for an eBook copy. I've bought two paperbacks that came with free eBook downloads.
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Old 12-19-2018, 08:54 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustratedReader
If you "give" an electronic copy of ANYTHING to someone, you should delete the original unless it's out of copyright.
Yes, this is exactly what I though of when I was writing about "giving books". There should be a way to give electronic books, forcing you in the process to delete (or disable) your own copy. As for the lend process, the original copy should be disabled so long the book hasn't been returned.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustratedReader
Boycott DRM.
I completely understand you. I use to boycott many things which are too proprietary for my taste. I'm a happy Linux user and I avoid some companies as much as I can. The current problem is that I don't see how we can prevent piracy if it is easy for everyone to pirate electronic contents. People tend to prefer to keep it easy, so long it stays either free or not to expensive. We see that with other electronic contents such as movies and music. Since there exist now platforms like Netflix and Spotify, there is less and less piracy of contents which can be found there. And these are proprietary companies, because they protect proprietary material. Movies, songs and books, these are all copyrighted contents. (Nonetheless, I don't like companies growing a monopoly. Netflix starts to have some concurrence in some countries and this is good so. As for Adobe with their DRM, it is a pitty that they don't have concurrence as well. I opine that it should be Kobo, Kindle and the like, on their own which should make sure that the contents stay protected.)

Basically, I see two things possible : either stop using DRMs, but create at the same time a way that is so easy to use in order to share books with friends (disabling the original copy so long the lent book has not been returned) that it will be used by most users, cutting down piracy since people buy the books in the first hand; or keep using DRMs, but create the same system as in the previous case, which would avoid people breaking the DRMs for no reason. Moreover, this would remove all the hassle for the inexperienced people which do not know how to realise such a basic thing as lend a book, bypassing the DRMs. If the DRMs aren't so restrictive as they now are, they would become less evil ^^

This is obviously only an opinion of mine, and I would be glad to discuss more on this subject, since other opinions can be very interesting to hear.

And there is no doubt in the fact that Rakuten prefer anyway to keep using these DRMs, so if we are to ask a feature, we'd better keep from asking for the moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustratedReader
The Amazon Kindle method is a bit toxic
What do you mean with that ??
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Old 12-19-2018, 09:32 AM   #5
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Lend the device. Whatever book are on it can then be read by the loanee.

It eliminates time restrictions, and seems the most like loaning a print book IMO.

That said, I rarely loaned my print books. After getting books back with dogearred corners or worse, or not getting a book back at all, I stopped loaning.

For my Kindle books, the family members who read similar books as me are using devices registered to my Amazon account.
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:36 AM   #6
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Mods, please don't delete. This is not about justifying piracy or enabling it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlemonde View Post
The current problem is that I don't see how we can prevent piracy if it is easy for everyone to pirate electronic contents.
You can't. Industrial pirates are NOT AT ALL prevented by DRM:
1) Video (HDCP, BluRay, 4K etc). Ultimate is simply point HD camera or 4K camera at a $500 HD TV in a dark room. Most early piracy is done at studio or projection booth in cinema. For FTA TV, just a USB stick or a PC with sat card instead of DRM encumbered HDD on Android TV, Humax or Sky box.

2) Audio streaming etc. Any Virtual patch cable for chaining sound processing, or the headphone connection.

3) Books. Often the ARC is pirated. Industrial pirates buy paper book, cut spine off, scan on Autosheet feeder and distribute PDF. Some do OCR and a little Proof Reading. Staggeringly Google for their book store encourages PDF upload rather than MS Doc or ePub! But then Google makes lots of money from piracy on their YouTube.

There is NO DRM that prevents commercial piracy. It and the USA valid only DMCA only help big corps to sell multiple formats for multiple devices to same user and inconvenience the user. Why should EVERY viewer have to watch an skippable anti-piracy lecture?

I totally support Copyright and Patents and Registered Designs (USA Design Patents). I totally oppose DRM, DMCA etc as they are fake anti-piracy to exploit consumers and take away fair rights and stop distribution by ordinary people when Copyright expires. I also oppose the repeated extensions (Disney spends a fortune on lobbying) of Copyright after Author's death and Publishing companies getting FULL lifetime rights from writers. Copyright should revert to author after 5 or 10 years, or after 2 years out of print.

DRM isn't the solution to Pirates. That's like insisting everyone wears a tracker and every highway is tolled requiring an ID card. DRM can only ever add cost & inconvenience and take away rights under international treaties from people. It can never stop pirates. They need to go after UPLOADERs, moles in their own companies, commercial companies, not users and consumers.
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Old 01-10-2019, 04:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustratedReader View Post
" I also oppose the repeated extensions (Disney spends a fortune on lobbying) of Copyright after Author's death and Publishing companies getting FULL lifetime rights from writers. Copyright should revert to author after 5 or 10 years, or after 2 years out of print"
As an FYI, in the US, authors can reclaim their rights after 35 years. This includes music as well as books and other works. I don't agree with this length, but at least it is better than never.

FWIW, I also register either Kindles or Kindle apps to my account for family/friends to read my library. Very few books have a limit to the number that can be downloaded at the same time, so it's not been a problem. I also have a Kobo that won't hook up to wifi any longer - I sideload books on that to lend to someone. It's my device - I can lend it to anybody.

Last edited by Tarana; 01-10-2019 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:29 PM   #8
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The easiest way to lend digital books to a friend is to simply strip out the DRM and email the file to them.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlemonde View Post
So, back to my question. Do we have a chance to convince Rakuten ? If we have, what steps should we go and whom should we contact first?
Keep in mind that even if you were to somehow convince Kobo to implement something like this you'd then need to convince publishers to allow it. The Kindle and Nook lending of things is very limited as most big publishers don't allow it and even on titles you can lend you can lend them exactly once. After that the ability to lend goes away.

I tend to think Kobo hasn't bothered since publishers are largely not on board with such a feature.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:42 PM   #10
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The easiest way to lend digital books to a friend is to simply strip out the DRM and email the file to them.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:19 PM   #11
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
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The easiest way to lend digital books to a friend is to simply strip out the DRM and email the file to them.
No, that's wrong. It's the same as photocopying an entire book. I'd not mind my books being lent by you loaning the eReader they are legitimately on. I'd consider a civil suit against anyone sending copies. I don't even have DRM on my books. That is for the convenience of the purchaser so they can read it on any device and that it can freely copied when copyright expires.
Even books without DRM and free download can't be copied to others if in copyright (www.gutenberg.org are fine). The friend has to download their own free copy.

Copyright is international treaties implemented as laws in most countries. Contrary to messages on DVDs, "piracy" is NOT theft. It's violation of the distribution rights of the copyright owner. It can be a criminal offence (fixed maximum tariffs), but in most countries it's a Civil offence.
Criminal: Government gets value of fine, guilty can be fined or jail or both. i.e. steal a carton of physical books. Maximum amount of fine/jail set by law.
Civil: The damaged party gets all the money and their costs. No risk of jail but there is NO limit on the damages that can be set. Hence Cable TV in Ireland never wants a Prosecution for "Theft of Service" (max $6000 fine & 6 months jail). They bring a Civil case on behalf of the cable content's copyright holders. Damages of over $100,000 plus all costs against people enabling piracy are common. Usually they will settle with the consumers of pirated content for a back payment of top package backdated to date the person/family moved into the address.

Unauthorised copies are immoral and may be illegal. Certainly make you open to a civil case you'd lose. Copying to another device of your own, or a backup isn't immoral. Mostly outside the USA it's even legal, even if DRM needs removed. Sadly removal of DRM in USA is illegal. That's plain wrong.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:36 PM   #13
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If you ever again use this site to advocate piracy you will be immediately and permanently banned. This is the one and only warning you will receive. Take it seriously.
I wasn't advocating privacy, I was just stating a simple fact. No harm intended, but thank you for the warning.
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Old Yesterday, 07:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deskisamess View Post
Lend the device. Whatever book are on it can then be read by the loanee.

It eliminates time restrictions, and seems the most like loaning a print book IMO.

That said, I rarely loaned my print books. After getting books back with dogearred corners or worse, or not getting a book back at all, I stopped loaning.

For my Kindle books, the family members who read similar books as me are using devices registered to my Amazon account.
Wow! I couldn't trust family that way. Once the Kindle is registered, it can purchase books drawn from your bank account. It's not that I believe my family are dishonest. I just don't trust it to occur to them while they freely download books at my expense.

The way I'd do this lending is to purchase an old Kindle for lending purposes and sideload the books onto it, but most of my family isn't into eReaders. The daughter who is has her own.

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