A Question on ethics - Page 5

rwsimon · 07-11-2007, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingle

Clearly? Interesting.

Let's say you're from the future. In addition to a nifty spandex unitard, you also have a replicator! It can produce any physical object once it knows the molecular "pattern". You see some poor, hungry people in the street. Appalled, you buy an apple from the fruit stand, duplicate its pattern, and begin giving the fruit to anyone who wants one.

"Stop!" The fruit stand owner shouts desperately, watching his profits vanish. "This is obviously illegal and immoral!"

Not sure this example works. The fruit stand owner only has rights to his apples, not to all apples. Now if the spandex dude started chunking out Apple iPods, then that fruit stand owner Steve Jobs would be quite justified in his shouting...

Cpt. Tim · 07-11-2007, 07:45 PM

Theres books in my life that i've bought multiple times, bought hardcover, bought paperback, gave away, bought again, bought used, gave away.

I figure that the money has gone to the writers pocket and the book goes to my brain. At that point i'm not going to cry over having a pirated text for my own usage. It would be much like a cd i have getting scratched and me making a copy of that disk from a friend. Legal? no. But ethically i've given the money. How the information i now own exists doesn't matter to me, it matters that the information is acessable to me.

Now if theres an offical ebook out there of it, stealing it is wrong. more work was done on that than was done in the paperback. someone paid for the liscense. someone formatted and made the ebook.

In general i try to refrain from finding internet texts of books i've already bought. For one it stunts the growth of the ebook industry, and two, they usually suck in quality. but sometimes i can't wait. Once the ebook industry gets to the level of quality itunes has set, then i'll be happy to once again pay for those books if the price is right.

DRM is another story. I've already bought a handful of books from sony. what happens when i want to buy an ebook reader? I'm screwed out of those purchases, unless i break the law. There really needs to be an industry standard because the thought that i will be shit out of luck with a new reader is stopping me from purchasing anything further from the connect store.

I think ultimately you have to do right by yourself. Me, i think if the author and publishers get the money for the product then its fine. (buying the hardcover and stealing the paperback isn't a good analogy because you're stealing product. physical material.) Theres no ebook police out there thats as ferocious as the RIAA. If you give the creators, and producers money, i don't think anyone should shed dears over it. I pay for media in multiple formats all the time. sometimes i get battlestar episodes on Itunes, and then i later buy the dvd box sets.
Sometimes i torrent a movie because i can't wait between when it leaves theater and when i'm able to buy dvds. Sure i guess it supports a culture of piracy thats springing, up. But i find that the powers that be have fueled it with damaged goods. Do right by yourself. because no one else is looking to call you on it.

kovidgoyal · 07-11-2007, 08:04 PM

Here's the "poor grad student's perspective' since it doesn't seem to be represented:

I read about 2 books a week on average. What I used to do is go to the local library once a month and bring home a whole stack of books, for no cost, as I can't afford to buy that many paperbacks every month. Now if a particular author was not in my local library, I'd simply end up not reading him.

The internet is a godsend for guys like me :-)

pruss · 07-11-2007, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volwrath

It is a slippery slope, but its also called fairuse. So if you bought the latest Rush CD, should you not be able to rip it to .mp3? After all they sell digital equivalents at iTunes, so by your reasoning, you are stealing the mp3s by ripping them.

I understand that US law allows the copying of music from a CD one owns. But it does not allow one to download an mp3 from a third-party site. At least I think this is what the courts have said.

There seem to me to be many ways of arranging a set of copyright laws that balance encouragement to content creators and availability to others. One particular set of laws has been chosen in the U.S. by duly elected representatives. The set of laws chosen is far from perfect, but nonetheless it is not clearly unreasonable on the whole. It seems reasonable, for instance, for a publisher to be able to charge you more for getting more and less for getting less, thus charging you $25 for a hardcover, $35 for a hardcover plus one electronic copy, $45 for a hardcover plus an electronic copy you can convert to arbitrary formats for personal use, and $20 million for a non-exclusive unlimited distribution and use license. The present set of copyright laws makes such tiered pricing possible, and it seems like a set of laws that make this possible is not a clearly unreasonable law.

Once laws are chosen, if the laws are not immoral or clearly unreasonable, we the subjects of these laws need to obey (or leave their jurisdiction).

slayda · 07-11-2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pruss

Once laws are chosen, if the laws are not immoral or clearly unreasonable, we the subjects of these laws need to obey (or leave their jurisdiction).

Or work to change the laws!

volwrath · 07-11-2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pruss

I understand that US law allows the copying of music from a CD one owns. But it does not allow one to download an mp3 from a third-party site. At least I think this is what the courts have said.

That is the way I understand it. But if you own the CD and rip the CDs @ 256, or if you download the equivalent cds@256, whats the real difference? Bit for bit, its the same thing.

Moving on to ebooks. If you have a paperback copy of the book, and scan it to make your own ebook, or download it to make your ebook, once again it is the same digital material. The only difference is, that it is much more a pain to make your own ebook. Besides I imagine most any any author wouldnt begrudge you downloading an ebook of their work, if you properly contributed to the author on the hardcover and/or paperback. It sure beats you not reading them at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pruss

There seem to me to be many ways of arranging a set of copyright laws that balance encouragement to content creators and availability to others. One particular set of laws has been chosen in the U.S. by duly elected representatives. The set of laws chosen is far from perfect, but nonetheless it is not clearly unreasonable on the whole. It seems reasonable, for instance, for a publisher to be able to charge you more for getting more and less for getting less, thus charging you $25 for a hardcover, $35 for a hardcover plus one electronic copy, $45 for a hardcover plus an electronic copy you can convert to arbitrary formats for personal use

If you feel thats reasonable, fine. Personally I think that is insane. So you truly think $20 over hardcover is reasonable to pay for an unDRMed ebook?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pruss

Once laws are chosen, if the laws are not immoral or clearly unreasonable, we the subjects of these laws need to obey (or leave their jurisdiction).

Not necessarily. Ever heard of civil disobedience? Besides the subject of this thread is about ethics, now which is lawful..big difference

mogui · 07-11-2007, 09:35 PM

This is one of the all-time stimulating (and perhaps controversial) discussions here. Thanks to pruss for clarifying the dimension of morality in this context.

In some of the societies in which I have lived public morality is contingent upon consanguinity. If you are my brother I will treat you with all the care and honesty of which I am capable. If you are a stranger you can count on me cheating you if I am able. This is a fact of life in countries with high populations and pervasive poverty. Public morality is, unfortunately a luxury of affluence.

For many of the authors I have read over the years, I have a feeling of awe, reverence, maybe even love. They are wonders to me and I feel like I want to take care of them. We have a concept of boundaries in our western culture. We have physical boundaries (person and property). We have intellectual boundaries (creative works, properties of our labors). And we have emotional boundaries (sense of self, pride).

We interact with the boundaries of others along a continuum of respect. Aretha Franklin said it well a long time ago. When we have a sense of caring about our fellow man, we take care of his boundaries because we feel a kinship and a sense of what is right. This restates the morality argument in a psychological dimension.

In some third world nations, we will not find pirated books in the bookstores because there is no demand. But on every little street there are shops selling DVDs for less than a buck. First-run movies are available, sometimes even before they hit the theaters in the west. Now that is industry!

We don't create social systems because a few people demand them. We create them out of a sense of fairness, and unfortunately sometimes greed. If we are going to promote a system of compensation for authors that satisfies, we need consensus that the present systems do not serve anyone well. We need to respect the boundaries of creative people, even if only out of self-interest. We want more books, more paintings, more films, more tunes, and a world of ideas.

We cannot stop theft in poor countries, because respect for intellectual boundaries is an expensive commodity which they cannot yet afford. But in the comfortable places in our world we can create systems that encourage creativity at a minimal cost to ourselves. Authors and the like bend to their labors out of enthusiasm, or hope for profit. That is not clear, but clearly there are fewer of them able to quit their day jobs because the system shows them no respect.

What treasures are we losing?

igorsk · 07-12-2007, 08:28 AM

volwrath · 07-12-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mogui

In some of the societies in which I have lived public morality is contingent upon consanguinity. If you are my brother I will treat you with all the care and honesty of which I am capable. If you are a stranger you can count on me cheating you if I am able. This is a fact of life in countries with high populations and pervasive poverty. Public morality is, unfortunately a luxury of affluence.

For many of the authors I have read over the years, I have a feeling of awe, reverence, maybe even love. They are wonders to me and I feel like I want to take care of them. We have a concept of boundaries in our western culture. We have physical boundaries (person and property). We have intellectual boundaries (creative works, properties of our labors). And we have emotional boundaries (sense of self, pride).

We interact with the boundaries of others along a continuum of respect. Aretha Franklin said it well a long time ago. When we have a sense of caring about our fellow man, we take care of his boundaries because we feel a kinship and a sense of what is right. This restates the morality argument in a psychological dimension.

In some third world nations, we will not find pirated books in the bookstores because there is no demand. But on every little street there are shops selling DVDs for less than a buck. First-run movies are available, sometimes even before they hit the theaters in the west. Now that is industry!

{snip}

We cannot stop theft in poor countries, because respect for intellectual boundaries is an expensive commodity which they cannot yet afford. But in the comfortable places in our world we can create systems that encourage creativity at a minimal cost to ourselves. Authors and the like bend to their labors out of enthusiasm, or hope for profit. That is not clear, but clearly there are fewer of them able to quit their day jobs because the system shows them no respect.

What treasures are we losing?

All of your points in your posts are well thoughtout, and I totally agree with your statement that public morality is a luxury of the affluent. My arguments on this topic have dealt primarily with personal morality, which is a totally different animal. I guarantee if the government didn't protect the copyright laws here in the US we would have bootleg dvd's being sold in the streets.

BTW I wiki'd Yunnan and Kunming, and it looks like a beautiful province/city.

volwrath · 07-12-2007, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by igorsk

I didn't read all of his essays, but I agree with what I did read. I remember reading something similiar from Orson Scott Card in his hatrack river column a few years ago.

pruss · 07-12-2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeusExMe

It is indeed a deep issue. I've thought through some of these issues and reached as many confusions as I have conclusion.

In my estimation, if I buy the intellectual property "Ender's Game" (as an example) from the Microsoft Reader store (continuing the example, or if Microsoft has a promotion and gives the thing to me for that matter) I now have the right to enjoy my purchase in any manner I see fit. Certainly I can purchase a Microsoft Reader if I so desire and read it that way. However, to take actions with my own personal file, which is legally mine, which makes that file readable on my Sony Reader, seems well within my rights. I am not certain if the U.S. law governing such things would back me up, but I am fairly certain that it is the right thing.

But when you signed up with the MS Reader store, one almost certainly had to click through an agreement where one promised not to convert the ebook. It seems, thus, that by converting the file one is violating a promise one has made.

Cpt. Tim · 07-12-2007, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pruss

Once laws are chosen, if the laws are not immoral or clearly unreasonable, we the subjects of these laws need to obey (or leave their jurisdiction).

If everyone who smoked pot once and while left their state/country, the population of amsterdam would go through the roof.

In other words. I disagree.

Especially in an age where digital rights and digital copyright are going to be written by lawmakers under the influence of whatever industry lobbyist pays them the most.

yvanleterrible · 07-12-2007, 11:58 AM

There are laws that are in favor by most of the population but are never respected. Ex: speed limits. On the boulevard that leads to my street, no one respects that limit, even the staunchiest observers can be seen speeding. I bet a shot of Karma that everybody here has a questionable ebook somewhere. And no I'm not talking about indexed books.

HarryT · 07-12-2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

There are laws that are in favor by most of the population but are never respected. Ex: speed limits. On the boulevard that leads to my street, no one respects that limit, even the staunchiest observers can be seen speeding.

Don't you have speed cameras in Canada?

yvanleterrible · 07-12-2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Don't you have speed cameras in Canada?

They're setting some in Ontario and they're talking about it in Québec. Those are Provincial laws.

07-11-2007, 07:45 PM	#62
Cpt. Tim Member Posts: 24 Karma: 24 Join Date: Apr 2007 Device: Sony Reader	Theres books in my life that i've bought multiple times, bought hardcover, bought paperback, gave away, bought again, bought used, gave away. I figure that the money has gone to the writers pocket and the book goes to my brain. At that point i'm not going to cry over having a pirated text for my own usage. It would be much like a cd i have getting scratched and me making a copy of that disk from a friend. Legal? no. But ethically i've given the money. How the information i now own exists doesn't matter to me, it matters that the information is acessable to me. Now if theres an offical ebook out there of it, stealing it is wrong. more work was done on that than was done in the paperback. someone paid for the liscense. someone formatted and made the ebook. In general i try to refrain from finding internet texts of books i've already bought. For one it stunts the growth of the ebook industry, and two, they usually suck in quality. but sometimes i can't wait. Once the ebook industry gets to the level of quality itunes has set, then i'll be happy to once again pay for those books if the price is right. DRM is another story. I've already bought a handful of books from sony. what happens when i want to buy an ebook reader? I'm screwed out of those purchases, unless i break the law. There really needs to be an industry standard because the thought that i will be shit out of luck with a new reader is stopping me from purchasing anything further from the connect store. I think ultimately you have to do right by yourself. Me, i think if the author and publishers get the money for the product then its fine. (buying the hardcover and stealing the paperback isn't a good analogy because you're stealing product. physical material.) Theres no ebook police out there thats as ferocious as the RIAA. If you give the creators, and producers money, i don't think anyone should shed dears over it. I pay for media in multiple formats all the time. sometimes i get battlestar episodes on Itunes, and then i later buy the dvd box sets. Sometimes i torrent a movie because i can't wait between when it leaves theater and when i'm able to buy dvds. Sure i guess it supports a culture of piracy thats springing, up. But i find that the powers that be have fueled it with damaged goods. Do right by yourself. because no one else is looking to call you on it. Last edited by Cpt. Tim; 07-11-2007 at 07:56 PM.

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07-11-2007, 08:04 PM	#63
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 43,850 Karma: 22666666 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	Here's the "poor grad student's perspective' since it doesn't seem to be represented: I read about 2 books a week on average. What I used to do is go to the local library once a month and bring home a whole stack of books, for no cost, as I can't afford to buy that many paperbacks every month. Now if a particular author was not in my local library, I'd simply end up not reading him. The internet is a godsend for guys like me :-)

07-11-2007, 09:35 PM	#67
mogui eNigma Posts: 503 Karma: 1335 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Philippines Device: HTC G1 Android FBReader	This is one of the all-time stimulating (and perhaps controversial) discussions here. Thanks to pruss for clarifying the dimension of morality in this context. In some of the societies in which I have lived public morality is contingent upon consanguinity. If you are my brother I will treat you with all the care and honesty of which I am capable. If you are a stranger you can count on me cheating you if I am able. This is a fact of life in countries with high populations and pervasive poverty. Public morality is, unfortunately a luxury of affluence. For many of the authors I have read over the years, I have a feeling of awe, reverence, maybe even love. They are wonders to me and I feel like I want to take care of them. We have a concept of boundaries in our western culture. We have physical boundaries (person and property). We have intellectual boundaries (creative works, properties of our labors). And we have emotional boundaries (sense of self, pride). We interact with the boundaries of others along a continuum of respect. Aretha Franklin said it well a long time ago. When we have a sense of caring about our fellow man, we take care of his boundaries because we feel a kinship and a sense of what is right. This restates the morality argument in a psychological dimension. In some third world nations, we will not find pirated books in the bookstores because there is no demand. But on every little street there are shops selling DVDs for less than a buck. First-run movies are available, sometimes even before they hit the theaters in the west. Now that is industry! We don't create social systems because a few people demand them. We create them out of a sense of fairness, and unfortunately sometimes greed. If we are going to promote a system of compensation for authors that satisfies, we need consensus that the present systems do not serve anyone well. We need to respect the boundaries of creative people, even if only out of self-interest. We want more books, more paintings, more films, more tunes, and a world of ideas. We cannot stop theft in poor countries, because respect for intellectual boundaries is an expensive commodity which they cannot yet afford. But in the comfortable places in our world we can create systems that encourage creativity at a minimal cost to ourselves. Authors and the like bend to their labors out of enthusiasm, or hope for profit. That is not clear, but clearly there are fewer of them able to quit their day jobs because the system shows them no respect. What treasures are we losing?

07-12-2007, 08:28 AM	#68
igorsk Wizard Posts: 3,442 Karma: 300001 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Belgium Device: PRS-500/505/700, Kindle, Cybook Gen3, Words Gear	I would recommend all participants to read Eric Flint's Salvos Against Big Brother. He has covered a lot of the points being discussed and many more. He also has an experience of being an author and an editor, so he can see more sides of the story than us. http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/principle http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/salvos2 http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/salvos3 http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/salvos4 http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/salvos5 http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/salvos6 http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/salvos7 http://www.baens-universe.com/articl...uley_copyright

07-12-2007, 11:58 AM	#73
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	There are laws that are in favor by most of the population but are never respected. Ex: speed limits. On the boulevard that leads to my street, no one respects that limit, even the staunchiest observers can be seen speeding. I bet a shot of Karma that everybody here has a questionable ebook somewhere. And no I'm not talking about indexed books.

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