Why no format/layout "disclaimers" in ebooks?

1611mac · 11-25-2011, 01:19 PM

I was wondering..... with so many apps that display ebooks with "less than perfect" results, why no "disclaimer" by publishers? Some apps don't even display/render the simplest things (ex: italics) correctly.

And then, with some apps, the user may over-ride the Publishers format with their own. I recently was reading a book using "Helvetica" and then suddenly realized that I was not seeing Italics because there was no Helvetica Italic font. I was messing up my own book! Switched fonts, and.... Italics!

If I were a publisher I'd be tempted to (right up front) say something like "Hey You! Please read this e-book with something that at least shows italics!" (but of course in a much more professional way.)

Comments? Anyone ever see a "disclaimer"? What would you think if you came across one?

Zetmolm · 11-25-2011, 01:35 PM

No. Any such disclaimer is a waste of space, in my opinion. There are too many disclaimers already in this world, as if no one is willing to take responsibility for what they do. A publisher is responsible for formatting books in such a way that it shows correctly in the average decent reader. An app maker is responsible for rendering everything according to the specs of his app (which he must make clear before you download this app, of course), and we as readers are responsible for making sure that the apps we download do what we need and, whenever that is relevant, install the proper fonts on our readers. All this should be pretty obvious to everyone concerned, and does not require disclaimers.

1611mac · 11-25-2011, 01:43 PM

So all the people getting new eReaders/devices this Christmas are supposed to know that if they select a certain font they may not see italics? (not arguing, just spurring discussion).

We all read posts here in the forums all the time proving that there is a great "mix" of people and many (myself included) are still learning....

Rob Lister · 11-25-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1611mac

So all the people getting new eReaders/devices this Christmas are supposed to know that if they select a certain font they may not see italics? (not arguing, just spurring discussion).

We all read posts here in the forums all the time proving that there is a great "mix" of people and many (myself included) are still learning....

You figured it out.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 11-25-2011, 03:17 PM

It's practically impossible for a publisher to be aware of all the possible ways their ebook might display on various devices. In the past, producers with similar dilemmas would establish which device handled their product properly, and "endorse" that product, to wit: "We recommend you view this file with the Amazon Kindle Fire."

Unfortunately, ebook production standards are so lax, and (just like the browser wars) publishers are ignoring standards and validation and doing their own thing. So device manufacturers cannot depend on getting a file in a validated format, and so can't guarantee what will be displayed.

If anything, publishers should provide info on whether their file has been validated, and even to what spec. Any device that can consistently and properly display a validated file should be able to read it. If the publisher has not validated their file, they should by law have to state that, too.

Under ideal circumstances, customers should be checking out a device before they buy, so they'll know what to expect.

Jack Tingle · 11-26-2011, 01:55 PM

This is one of the good features of the basic Kindle, IMO. The HTML 3.2/.opf based Mobipocket format doesn't allow a lot of format control, beyond reflow and simple handling of in-line pictures. The "I must have control of every tiny bit of the formatting" crowd hates it, but most anything that sticks to the simple rules will render in a decent format on a Kindle (and similarly designed devices). Same deal in the essentially similar MS Reader software. (Requiescat in Pace)

If you hack your Kindle(etc.) because you have to have some particular font, on your head be it. Other readers give you more control, but you also have the power to screw up. Remember, Bezo's stated goal with the Kindle was to have the device disappear from your experience. Same for the MS Reader team (ref. Bill Hill & 'Osprey'). That only counts if you play by the device's very simplified rules. Other devices have other goals, virtues and faults. YMMV.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

anamardoll · 11-28-2011, 02:01 PM

In the book I'm writing now, I have thoughts signaled with both quotes and italics, like thus:

"That can't be right," she thought.

Several of my beta readers felt this was overkill and to just stick with italics, but I've been on WAY too many readers that failed to render italics; I feel I need to leave the quotes. And I really would prefer to not JUST use quotes for thoughts because I like the short-hand of italics (when available) to immediately signal Not Spoken Aloud.

I wouldn't be against a "test page" in books --

This is plain text.
This is bold text.
This is italic text.
[em]This is emphasized text.[/em]
This is strike through text.

1611mac · 11-28-2011, 02:12 PM

Right now I'm doing a conversion for a book that uses extensive quotations and extensive references (all in italics). Without italics it would be extremely difficult to keep track of things... (i.e.: Is this the author writing.. or is he quoting....) Some of the quotes are very long so it would be easy to get confused.

I'm somewhat surprised that this isn't a bigger deal to authors and publishers. Over in another thread there are readers saying they would never use "this app" or 'that app" because it doesn't display italics correctly. Why don't publishers and authors feel the same way? I can see an un-knowing reader blaming the publisher for a "bad ebook."

Giggleton · 11-28-2011, 02:47 PM

Stick to a standard, problem solved.

JSWolf · 11-28-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1611mac

I was wondering..... with so many apps that display ebooks with "less than perfect" results, why no "disclaimer" by publishers? Some apps don't even display/render the simplest things (ex: italics) correctly.

And then, with some apps, the user may over-ride the Publishers format with their own. I recently was reading a book using "Helvetica" and then suddenly realized that I was not seeing Italics because there was no Helvetica Italic font. I was messing up my own book! Switched fonts, and.... Italics!

If I were a publisher I'd be tempted to (right up front) say something like "Hey You! Please read this e-book with something that at least shows italics!" (but of course in a much more professional way.)

Comments? Anyone ever see a "disclaimer"? What would you think if you came across one?

Which apps are the broken apps that display ePub poorly?

JSWolf · 11-28-2011, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1611mac

Right now I'm doing a conversion for a book that uses extensive quotations and extensive references (all in italics). Without italics it would be extremely difficult to keep track of things... (i.e.: Is this the author writing.. or is he quoting....) Some of the quotes are very long so it would be easy to get confused.

I'm somewhat surprised that this isn't a bigger deal to authors and publishers. Over in another thread there are readers saying they would never use "this app" or 'that app" because it doesn't display italics correctly. Why don't publishers and authors feel the same way? I can see an un-knowing reader blaming the publisher for a "bad ebook."

Why would you use apps that don't work for displaying your eBook? Once you know it doesn't work, delete it, try another. When you find one that works, stick with it. Bluefire works. Stick with it. Don't bother with the broken apps.

JSWolf · 11-28-2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Stick to a standard, problem solved.

Not even that. It's user error in choosing to use an app that doesn't work.

1611mac · 11-28-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why would you use apps that don't work for displaying your eBook? Once you know it doesn't work, delete it, try another. When you find one that works, stick with it. Bluefire works. Stick with it. Don't bother with the broken apps.

Over in another forum users are tossing the better rendering apps for apps that connect to Calibre server even though some of those apps don't display italics. They prefer having their Calibre library available as opposed to correctly displayed text..... (and that's OK, but some don't realize they are giving up one thing for another, others know and make their own choose.)

morriss003 · 11-28-2011, 03:22 PM

We are in the early stages of tablet/ereader technology. As the tech evolves, these difficulties will be mostly resolved, just as early difficulties with computers in the 1900's were resolved.

JSWolf · 11-28-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1611mac

Over in another forum users are tossing the better rendering apps for apps that connect to Calibre server even though some of those apps don't display italics. They prefer having their Calibre library available as opposed to correctly displayed text..... (and that's OK, but some don't realize they are giving up one thing for another, others know and make their own choose.)

So, put in a disclaimer such as...

Disclaimer: If you are stupid enough to use an app to display this eBook that you know doesn't display correctly (just so you can use Calibre), then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

11-25-2011, 01:19 PM	#1
1611mac eWanderer Posts: 523 Karma: 1441998 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: NC, USA Device: iMac,iPad3,iPhone5-Kindle Fire,Touch,PaperWhite	Why no format/layout "disclaimers" in ebooks? I was wondering..... with so many apps that display ebooks with "less than perfect" results, why no "disclaimer" by publishers? Some apps don't even display/render the simplest things (ex: italics) correctly. And then, with some apps, the user may over-ride the Publishers format with their own. I recently was reading a book using "Helvetica" and then suddenly realized that I was not seeing Italics because there was no Helvetica Italic font. I was messing up my own book! Switched fonts, and.... Italics! If I were a publisher I'd be tempted to (right up front) say something like "Hey You! Please read this e-book with something that at least shows italics!" (but of course in a much more professional way.) Comments? Anyone ever see a "disclaimer"? What would you think if you came across one?

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11-25-2011, 01:35 PM	#2
Zetmolm Guru Posts: 612 Karma: 2031728 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: PocketBook Touch (622), PocketBook Touch Lux 2, Pocketbook Touch HD 3	No. Any such disclaimer is a waste of space, in my opinion. There are too many disclaimers already in this world, as if no one is willing to take responsibility for what they do. A publisher is responsible for formatting books in such a way that it shows correctly in the average decent reader. An app maker is responsible for rendering everything according to the specs of his app (which he must make clear before you download this app, of course), and we as readers are responsible for making sure that the apps we download do what we need and, whenever that is relevant, install the proper fonts on our readers. All this should be pretty obvious to everyone concerned, and does not require disclaimers.

11-25-2011, 01:43 PM	#3
1611mac eWanderer Posts: 523 Karma: 1441998 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: NC, USA Device: iMac,iPad3,iPhone5-Kindle Fire,Touch,PaperWhite	So all the people getting new eReaders/devices this Christmas are supposed to know that if they select a certain font they may not see italics? (not arguing, just spurring discussion). We all read posts here in the forums all the time proving that there is a great "mix" of people and many (myself included) are still learning....

11-25-2011, 03:17 PM	#5
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	It's practically impossible for a publisher to be aware of all the possible ways their ebook might display on various devices. In the past, producers with similar dilemmas would establish which device handled their product properly, and "endorse" that product, to wit: "We recommend you view this file with the Amazon Kindle Fire." Unfortunately, ebook production standards are so lax, and (just like the browser wars) publishers are ignoring standards and validation and doing their own thing. So device manufacturers cannot depend on getting a file in a validated format, and so can't guarantee what will be displayed. If anything, publishers should provide info on whether their file has been validated, and even to what spec. Any device that can consistently and properly display a validated file should be able to read it. If the publisher has not validated their file, they should by law have to state that, too. Under ideal circumstances, customers should be checking out a device before they buy, so they'll know what to expect.

11-26-2011, 01:55 PM	#6
Jack Tingle Punctuation Fetishist Posts: 557 Karma: 1070000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Bluest Commonwealth In East America Device: Kindle PW, Nexus 7 (2013), Galaxy S5 phone, Galaxy Tab 4 8.0	This is one of the good features of the basic Kindle, IMO. The HTML 3.2/.opf based Mobipocket format doesn't allow a lot of format control, beyond reflow and simple handling of in-line pictures. The "I must have control of every tiny bit of the formatting" crowd hates it, but most anything that sticks to the simple rules will render in a decent format on a Kindle (and similarly designed devices). Same deal in the essentially similar MS Reader software. (Requiescat in Pace) If you hack your Kindle(etc.) because you have to have some particular font, on your head be it. Other readers give you more control, but you also have the power to screw up. Remember, Bezo's stated goal with the Kindle was to have the device disappear from your experience. Same for the MS Reader team (ref. Bill Hill & 'Osprey'). That only counts if you play by the device's very simplified rules. Other devices have other goals, virtues and faults. YMMV. Regards, Jack Tingle

11-28-2011, 02:01 PM	#7
anamardoll Chasing Butterflies Posts: 3,132 Karma: 5074169 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: American Southwest Device: Uses batteries.	In the book I'm writing now, I have thoughts signaled with both quotes and italics, like thus: "That can't be right," she thought. Several of my beta readers felt this was overkill and to just stick with italics, but I've been on WAY too many readers that failed to render italics; I feel I need to leave the quotes. And I really would prefer to not JUST use quotes for thoughts because I like the short-hand of italics (when available) to immediately signal Not Spoken Aloud. I wouldn't be against a "test page" in books -- This is plain text. This is bold text. This is italic text. [em]This is emphasized text.[/em] This is strike through text.

11-28-2011, 02:12 PM	#8
1611mac eWanderer Posts: 523 Karma: 1441998 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: NC, USA Device: iMac,iPad3,iPhone5-Kindle Fire,Touch,PaperWhite	Right now I'm doing a conversion for a book that uses extensive quotations and extensive references (all in italics). Without italics it would be extremely difficult to keep track of things... (i.e.: Is this the author writing.. or is he quoting....) Some of the quotes are very long so it would be easy to get confused. I'm somewhat surprised that this isn't a bigger deal to authors and publishers. Over in another thread there are readers saying they would never use "this app" or 'that app" because it doesn't display italics correctly. Why don't publishers and authors feel the same way? I can see an un-knowing reader blaming the publisher for a "bad ebook."

11-28-2011, 02:47 PM	#9
Giggleton Banned Posts: 1,687 Karma: 4368191 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oregon Device: Kindle3	Stick to a standard, problem solved.

11-28-2011, 03:22 PM	#14
morriss003 Evangelist Posts: 438 Karma: 3409790 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Maui Device: kindle	We are in the early stages of tablet/ereader technology. As the tech evolves, these difficulties will be mostly resolved, just as early difficulties with computers in the 1900's were resolved.

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