Amazon Kindle and Sony Reader Locked Up: Why Your Books Are No Longer Yours

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

It is the sharing that causes the problem. Too many greedy people but then even though a tool exists most people probably don't know about it (present people at MobileRead excepted). There is casually sharing such as a dad buys a book, his kid reads it and then emails it to all his friends.

Dale

I think the fact that few people know about the tools to strip book DRM is likely due to the fact that this is still a very small market. If ebooks get popular enough, I think these tools will be fairly well known. Besides, it only takes one person to put a title up on P2P sites for it to be easy to get by thousands or even millions of people just as it now happens with music. That's the scenario the publishers fear far more than someone emailing a few of their friends.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Alisa

That's the scenario the publishers fear far more than someone emailing a few of their friends.

This is exactly right. And as long as sites like this one keep pointing out that...

Originally Posted by Alisa

Besides, it only takes one person to put a title up on P2P sites for it to be easy to get by thousands or even millions of people just as it now happens with music.

...we will not see publishers entering the e-book market easily or willingly. If we want to see publishers enter this market, they have to be confident that they will not just lose their shirts. And unfortunately, very little that is said on these forums that would convince them otherwise.

[Alisa]

I don't think us on this forum staying mum and pretending like what already happens commonly with music and video wouldn't happen with books will make an iota of difference in what publishers do. They're far more likely to take their cue from the hard data in other electronic content businesses. I think they probably thought of all this before I mentioned it.

I doubt they even take those of us on a forum like this as representative of what the future market will be like if ebooks start to rival the popularity of pbooks. We probably think a lot more about the ethics of file sharing than most people. Just because most of us here are happy to strip the DRM off our books for our personal use and never share them doesn't mean the mass-market customer will do the same. Once again, they know this without me mentioning it. I'm not divulging any big secret or planting the seed of an idea that hasn't occurred to them.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

It is the sharing that causes the problem. Too many greedy people but then even though a tool exists most people probably don't know about it (present people at MobileRead excepted). There is casually sharing such as a dad buys a book, his kid reads it and then emails it to all his friends.

You mean just like physical books are shared today?

One person (like a library) buys one book, but many people read it for free.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Well, if that's the case, then I guess we should all stop discussing how the industry could be made better and healthier, go back to OCR'ing more public domain books for each other, and talking about how DRM, like, really, really sucks, dude.

The fact is, the books business is not exactly like the music, software and video markets. However, books publishers are looking to those businesses, seeing the troubles they went through, and digging their heads into the sand. The most progressive company out there... Amazon... is tying their customers into one device, one format (okay, two, really) and one channel, with DRM, as close to an iTunes-like experience as can be, and still, they can't get all publishers on the bandwagon. And in the meantime, a lot of older books are not getting converted into a format that people can use.

The publishers are not making desisions, good or bad, and it's because they do not have good information to go by, including info on what customers want. We are their customers, and we are discussing what we want, what we do not want, and what we will buy. And as the publishers do not seem to know how to give it to us, it behooves us to come up with suggestions and solutions for them to think about.

Other threads have made it clear that the publishing industry does know about MobileRead, and look to us for information about the market from the consumer's POV. These threads aren't just to hear ourselves talk... we're trying to participate in the development of a growing market. We're the test group, and as such, our responses are actually heard.

Which is why I say, based on common themes in these threads, it's no wonder Amazon gave us the Kindle system to lock books into a single device. It's what we, as a group, have indicated to those outside will be the only way to put books out there that will not be ripped off.

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well, if that's the case, then I guess we should all stop discussing how the industry could be made better and healthier, go back to OCR'ing more public domain books for each other, and talking about how DRM, like, really, really sucks, dude.

The fact is, the books business is not exactly like the music, software and video markets. However, books publishers are looking to those businesses, seeing the troubles they went through, and digging their heads into the sand. The most progressive company out there... Amazon... is tying their customers into one device, one format (okay, two, really) and one channel, with DRM, as close to an iTunes-like experience as can be, and still, they can't get all publishers on the bandwagon. And in the meantime, a lot of older books are not getting converted into a format that people can use.

The publishers are not making desisions, good or bad, and it's because they do not have good information to go by, including info on what customers want. We are their customers, and we are discussing what we want, what we do not want, and what we will buy. And as the publishers do not seem to know how to give it to us, it behooves us to come up with suggestions and solutions for them to think about.

Other threads have made it clear that the publishing industry does know about MobileRead, and look to us for information about the market from the consumer's POV. These threads aren't just to hear ourselves talk... we're trying to participate in the development of a growing market. We're the test group, and as such, our responses are actually heard.

Which is why I say, based on common themes in these threads, it's no wonder Amazon gave us the Kindle system to lock books into a single device. It's what we, as a group, have indicated to those outside will be the only way to put books out there that will not be ripped off.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but to call Amazon 'progressive' as far as their e-book strategy is concerned, well... could you POSSIBLY have chosen a word more opposite of their behavior? Look at Baen. Yes, Baen. Their e-books are available in several formats that a wide range of reading devices can handle. Yet everyone ignores Baen and cites Amazon. Hunh?!?

Derek

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

The publishers are not making desisions, good or bad, and it's because they do not have good information to go by, including info on what customers want. We are their customers, and we are discussing what we want, what we do not want, and what we will buy. And as the publishers do not seem to know how to give it to us, it behooves us to come up with suggestions and solutions for them to think about.

We've already done so. The problem is that in the eBook market, publishers are unnecessary middlemen who bring no value to readers. Yet they are the ones who keep demanding that we pay paper price for an eBook.

The future is authors selling directly to, and interacting directly with, their readers.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by delphidb96

I agree with most of what you're saying, but to call Amazon 'progressive' as far as their e-book strategy is concerned, well... could you POSSIBLY have chosen a word more opposite of their behavior? Look at Baen. Yes, Baen. Their e-books are available in several formats that a wide range of reading devices can handle. Yet everyone ignores Baen and cites Amazon. Hunh?!?

Sorry to say it, but Amazon is doing more for the growth and development of the e-book market than Baen... or MobiPocket... or Sony... or anyone else has managed so far. They have a device and matching delivery system, they have a large catalog, they have multiple publishers on-line, and most importantly, they have the recognition of the entire books market, not just e-book fans. Hey: No one else's system has been compared to iTunes.

I actually meant Amazon was the most progressive company... not that their strategy was progressive. Their strategy, however, seems to work pretty well.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

We've already done so. The problem is that in the eBook market, publishers are unnecessary middlemen who bring no value to readers. Yet they are the ones who keep demanding that we pay paper price for an eBook.

The future is authors selling directly to, and interacting directly with, their readers.

Yeah, we've had that discussion. One thing, though: The author still has to get market share, and figure out how to be profitable... something that the independent author is having a lot of trouble doing (especially in a market where profit may ultimately have to come from sponsors or advertisers, since consumers have indicated little willingness to pay what authors seem to believe they are worth).

These are things that middlemen can be very good at securing. They bring value to authors, when consumers do not. Like it or not, even publishers can have worth if they can at least make authoring profitable for you.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well, if that's the case, then I guess we should all stop discussing how the industry could be made better and healthier, go back to OCR'ing more public domain books for each other, and talking about how DRM, like, really, really sucks, dude.

The fact is, the books business is not exactly like the music, software and video markets. However, books publishers are looking to those businesses, seeing the troubles they went through, and digging their heads into the sand. The most progressive company out there... Amazon... is tying their customers into one device, one format (okay, two, really) and one channel, with DRM, as close to an iTunes-like experience as can be, and still, they can't get all publishers on the bandwagon. And in the meantime, a lot of older books are not getting converted into a format that people can use.

The publishers are not making desisions, good or bad, and it's because they do not have good information to go by, including info on what customers want. We are their customers, and we are discussing what we want, what we do not want, and what we will buy. And as the publishers do not seem to know how to give it to us, it behooves us to come up with suggestions and solutions for them to think about.

Other threads have made it clear that the publishing industry does know about MobileRead, and look to us for information about the market from the consumer's POV. These threads aren't just to hear ourselves talk... we're trying to participate in the development of a growing market. We're the test group, and as such, our responses are actually heard.

Which is why I say, based on common themes in these threads, it's no wonder Amazon gave us the Kindle system to lock books into a single device. It's what we, as a group, have indicated to those outside will be the only way to put books out there that will not be ripped off.

Steve,

How on earth could you take my response to you as saying we shouldn't discuss things when you were the one telling me I shouldn't state my opinion at all? Please.

Secondly, no, ebooks are not like music and video since there are fewer other ways to make money than actual sale of the content which makes illegal downloads even more scary for the publishers. Music has live performances. Video has cinema and TV. Very few books make money with anything other than book sales.

Thirdly, I'm sure publishers do know about us. Yet I don't see the bigger publishers taking many of our suggestions. Places like Baen do. We're their demographic. If the larger publishers out there thought we were a representative sample of their potential market, I don't think they'd worry about DRM at all. If you took this place as the microcosm, you'd think very few people downloaded without paying.

I don't see how telling me to shut up lest the publishers think people might share files helps anything. I think they're on to it.

[Halk]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

We've already done so. The problem is that in the eBook market, publishers are unnecessary middlemen who bring no value to readers. Yet they are the ones who keep demanding that we pay paper price for an eBook.

The future is authors selling directly to, and interacting directly with, their readers.

Things adapt. If tomorrow every single book retailer shut, and every author out there had their own website...

How long do you think it'd be before a site appeared for people to review books on?

As soon as that happens, there's your new middle man. Authors might give them a cut, or not, they make their money entirely from advertising. I couldn't predict how it would work, but I'm certain that middlemen would appear, and that they are worthwhile.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

We've already done so. The problem is that in the eBook market, publishers are unnecessary middlemen who bring no value to readers. Yet they are the ones who keep demanding that we pay paper price for an eBook.

The future is authors selling directly to, and interacting directly with, their readers.

I have a suggestion, rlauzon. Go get a copy of one of Robert Heinlein's manuscripts. (There's an online archive.) Buy one, and compare it to the published novel. After you do this, come back and tell me the publisher didn't add anything.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

You mean just like physical books are shared today?

One person (like a library) buys one book, but many people read it for free.

I think it's the scale that changes things. One person may lend a book to a few people. The library (which pays more for their books) may lend a book to a few dozen people. The physical book is typically only going to be read by one person at a time so that slows it down a bit. Many people won't be patient enough to wait to borrow a book they really want to read now. They'll pay the money as will the folks that want their own copy permanently. I think the rest is factored into the price the publishers charge for books. Right now they can get enough for a book to make the profit they want to make with the number of books sold despite the folks borrowing and buying used. Their big fear is if people start being able to share thousands of copies simultaneously with no inconvenience that there'll be no pricing structure with which they can still make their profit even when their costs are much less.

As someone who hates DRM and feels I should be able to read my books where and how I want I would really like to find a way for authors to make good money for their work (and I do think some of the services publishers provide still have a little value, too). I'm sure some sharing will always happen in any scenario but I think that we can't really treat casual sharing and mass sharing the same if we want to find a viable alternative to restrictive DRM.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I have a suggestion, rlauzon. Go get a copy of one of Robert Heinlein's manuscripts. (There's an online archive.) Buy one, and compare it to the published novel. After you do this, come back and tell me the publisher didn't add anything.

I have to agree here. I do see the role of the publisher changing if ebooks come to dominate since they will no longer be the gatekeepers to the expensive process of printing and distribution. I see them becoming more of a professional service: editing and publicity mostly. I think they could retain some value as brands, too. If I knew a publishing house that was actively seeking out the work that I like and skillfully editing it, I would take their name on the book as a good sign to look further into it. With electronic publishing the balance of power definitely shifts but I still see a lot of value they can add.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Alisa

How on earth could you take my response to you as saying we shouldn't discuss things when you were the one telling me I shouldn't state my opinion at all? Please.

Don't take that tone... I didn't tell you to shut up. I merely challenged your suggestion that the publishers didnt care what was discussed on this site.

Originally Posted by Alisa

Thirdly, I'm sure publishers do know about us. Yet I don't see the bigger publishers taking many of our suggestions.

You're right, they're not. That's because, for everyone here that proclaims honorable intentions regarding e-books, there are others who proudly proclaim they'll take what they can get, and laugh about it. I'm sure the publishers don't know what to think.

That's why Amazon took the first step for them, and has to drag them along for the ride.