Amazon Kindle and Sony Reader Locked Up: Why Your Books Are No Longer Yours

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Obviously SSN will only work in the USA.

Of course. But even in US, it doesn't have to be SSN. It can just be a number that people will not want to share, for fear of losing something (money, privacy, rights, etc).

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Just because the most advanced crooks can crack DRM doesn't mean that everybody can crack it does it? Surely DRM stops some people from stealing something. Otherwise why would Microsoft do it?

I think this is the point: Using something that is not perfect, yet prevents a significant enough amount of theft so the producers are comfortable selling. And we want them to sell.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

The point would be to permanently encrypt the file so it could only be read with readers sporting the same encryption code (which is why SSN was suggested... it's yours and yours alone). Someone else's reader, with their code based on their SSN (or whatever), wouldn't be able to read it. But every device you owned would.

It wouldn't restrict a file to 1 device. But it would restrict the file to 1 user. This might satisfy publishers looking for a rampant sharing solution.

But it would restrict a file to only devices for which the decryption program was available. Again, eReader does this, but isn't available for either of the devices I currently use. What if I'd used an eReader-supported device earlier, and now I wanted to read my eReader books on my iLiad? I wrote to eReader last year and asked if they would support the iLiad. They said no. Good thing there's a utility to take off the DRM now, isn't there?

True "social DRM" where the user's identifying information is embedded in the file is fair, because the user can continue to read the file whenever they want. Put it in ePub in some bit of XML that the average user doesn't see, and you've accomplished everything DRM really does, without the technical drawbacks. Yes, people could find a way to strip it out. But generally they don't. I believe, for example, that someone was actually able to trace one of the people who posted Harry Potter digital photos online because of information included in the JPG file. They hadn't bothered to strip that out.

And again, I really don't think most of the people sharing books are cracking DRM'd commercial ebooks and passing them around. There's no "gift economy" value to a stunt like that. Anyone can do it. The files we're seeing are mostly scans of older books that aren't available as commercial ebooks. I suppose that could change, and the situation could come to resemble that with music and videos, but to be honest if ebooks become that popular, it would indicate such a shift in reading habits that I can't help but think that any publishers or authors would be happy with the outcome.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

4. There is no way for a store to verify the SSN that you give them. So, you could give them a bogus one, then just share it with the files on the bit torent site.
BOb

I believe they could check it against your name. With your name and ssn they can do all sorts of stuff. Hence my earlier post about not wanting to share my SSN with a store. Yes. It's my "private" key and in this sort of encryption scheme, I shouldn't need to share it with anyone but if the idea is that it is supposed to be a sensitive bit of information to serve as a disincentive, then someone has to verify that I didn't just make it up. That means I have to share it.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Maybe what is needed is a "digital files license," a private key registered to you, verifiable (connected to you through some official database outside of the access of commercial interests), unique (one to a person), and attached to any digital files you might buy (software, music, e-books, etc). Losing or sharing that file could mean losing all of your digital files... like leaving the key in the lock of your front door. Therefore, few people would share it with anyone. It could be something issued to you at birth, or arranged for you at a certain age.

The key issuing body would not track what you buy... they just keep the data of whose key belongs to who.

Hardware would need to be designed to only accept digital files with a key that matched the hardware's key, which would be coded in at purchase of the hardware (possibly an extra payment would allow multiple keys to be encoded, i.e., you, spouse, kids, significant, etc). Software, music, e-books, etc, would be designed to hold the encrypted key in a pre-determined place/tag, and would not be changeable by the average consumer.

Older hardware would need to be adapted to this key system, or replaced with newer hardware. Old digital files would have to undergo a conversion process to have the keys embedded into them. If such a system was widely adopted, I'd expect most digital and HW sellers to initiate conversion programs (or risk consumer ostracization).

No, you would not be able to resell digital files directly... maybe a system could be developed to alter the file's key, allowing it to be transferred from one owner to the other (something a consumer might not be allowed to do, but which could be authorized at a vendor/middleman level... the "used e-book store").

Again, not a perfect system, but one that a majority of users and producers could be happy with.

[Taylor514ce]

Revelation 13:

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


(No, I'm not a religious person, but thought this was relevant. Plus it'll be fun to see the reactions. Ain't I a stinker?)

The poor beast though only has a single number for everyone. It really needs to catch up with the latest in cryptography.

[JSWolf]

The problem is the tower of eBable that we have. Right now, the portable eink devices only support DRM that has keys inside the files. The problem is that while social DRM might stop some people from giving out eBooks in the first place, it also might stop them from purchasing them as well. A lot of people do not want to have their info out there in that way. So using social DRM as much as it can do good, it can also be bad as well. if people don't want it because then your files contain some sort of personal information then it won't work.

To be honest, there is no DRM that will make everyone happy. It just doesn't and cannot exist. if I buy an eBook today, I usually buy it in a format that I can remove the DRM and format shift so that I can keep my content. If I was to decide I wanted a Gen3 and gave my wife my 505 and we sold her 500 then I would want most of my purchased content to still work. And it would. So I'm not totally screwed over.

If too many people find DRm getting int he way such that they either have to do without their purchased content or repurchase it, you'll find more and more people staying away from eBooks. Basically, DRM is just a way to say to people, we think you'll be stealing our content. It basically tells people theiy are thieves when they have not done anything wrong.

[Jadon]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Just because the most advanced crooks can crack DRM doesn't mean that everybody can crack it does it?

All you need is one person to crack it, and then there's a DRM-free file that can be infinitely copied. And often there are then tools that will strip that type of DRM from all files using it. It doesn't require we all be software geniuses. It merely requires one person to be, and for the results to be shared.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Maybe what is needed is a "digital files license," a private key registered to you, verifiable (connected to you through some official database outside of the access of commercial interests), unique (one to a person), and attached to any digital files you might buy (software, music, e-books, etc).

The problem with the above is that there would need to be a SINGLE third party to manage this. You think they would do it for free? Microsoft tried this with Passport. It was a great idea, and much needed... a single login authenticator which would just pass a yea or nea to the web site... the web site never saw your password, so they couldn't use it.

But, passport failed because no one wanted to pay microsoft to use it.

Microsoft tried to create a DRM scheme that was ubiquitious for Music called PlaysForSure. They actually licensed this one for pretty cheap I think. Many players supported it... But, it failed, because iPod and iTunes was so compelling everyone used that. iPod did NOT support PlaysForSure and no other player supports Apples "fair play" (which is in now way fair since it is proprietary).

We just need the eBook publishers to look at the music industry and see how much digital purchasing has increased since iTunes went to unprotected MP3's and now Amazon sells em too.

BOb

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

To be honest, there is no DRM that will make everyone happy.

Agreed... that would be impossible, and pointless to pursue. However, I'm not interested in creating DRM that makes everyone happy... I'm interested in a concept of DRM that the majority of buyers and sellers can live with. Something effectively practical.

Originally Posted by pilotbob

The problem with the above is that there would need to be a SINGLE third party to manage this. You think they would do it for free? Microsoft tried this with Passport. It was a great idea, and much needed... a single login authenticator which would just pass a yea or nea to the web site... the web site never saw your password, so they couldn't use it.

What I envision would be a non-profit organization that would handle it, not a corporation. Only a non-profit could manage it without automatically becoming beholden to the demands of stockholders/special interests/rich interests. And it would have to have a national scope, in today's market.

[Taylor514ce]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And it would have to have a national scope, in today's market.

International, I think. Just look at the demographics of this site.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Agreed... that would be impossible, and pointless to pursue. However, I'm not interested in creating DRM that makes everyone happy... I'm interested in a concept of DRM that the majority of buyers and sellers can live with. Something effectively practical.

The only DRM I would be happy with is DRM that doesn't contain any personal information, does not tie me down to one device or a few devices, does not prevent me from format shifting if I needed/wanted to, does not in any way get in my way.

Can such a DRM scheme exist? I doubt it.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

International, I think. Just look at the demographics of this site.

My mistake... I meant to say international.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Jadon

All you need is one person to crack it, and then there's a DRM-free file that can be infinitely copied. And often there are then tools that will strip that type of DRM from all files using it. It doesn't require we all be software geniuses. It merely requires one person to be, and for the results to be shared.

It is the sharing that causes the problem. Too many greedy people but then even though a tool exists most people probably don't know about it (present people at MobileRead excepted). There is casually sharing such as a dad buys a book, his kid reads it and then emails it to all his friends.

Dale

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The only DRM I would be happy with is DRM that doesn't contain any personal information, does not tie me down to one device or a few devices, does not prevent me from format shifting if I needed/wanted to, does not in any way get in my way.

Can such a DRM scheme exist? I doubt it.

Suppose there was a DRM that, yes, did some of those things you didn't like... but in exchange, any book ever written was available to you, to read on any device you owned?

Would that be worth some mild discomfiture from DRM?

[astra]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Suppose there was a DRM that, yes, did some of those things you didn't like... but in exchange, any book ever written was available to you, to read on any device you owned?

Would that be worth some mild discomfiture from DRM?

Surely I cannot answer for JSWolf, however, I agree completely with the post you refering to, so I will answer for myself.
It depends on the price.
I agree to pay $10 (very rarely and highly unlikely more than $16), for a non-DRMed book. 2$ is the top I would pay for DRMed one.