Question about legalities

Tanellthyon · 09-24-2008, 10:30 PM

Hi there,

I don't know if this question's been asked yet or not (spent a while looking for a similar thread and couldn't find one).

Assuming one owns a real, physical copy of a book, is it legal to download the digital version?

E.G. I own Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, and since doesn't seem to be available anywhere (even though it previously was), is it legal to download from the...rather...shadowy...sites?

And don't get me wrong, I'm not out to rip anyone off. If anything, I'd buy the entire series were it released on Sony's (or anybody else's) store. But it's not, and I own the real books anyway. Just want to be able to carry it around more conveniently.

So if anybody can point out any laws, or experiences, or anything like that, I'd appreciate it. Thanks

NOTE: Just remembered, in most other formats, if you own a real copy, digital copies are okay to download. E.G. if you own a video game, it's okay to download the emulator/ROM version of it, or to download MP3s of a CD you own. Does this also apply to eBooks?

JSWolf · 09-24-2008, 10:35 PM

Wizard's First Rule is available as an exclusive eBook at Amazon.

RWood · 09-24-2008, 10:57 PM

As I understand the rulings in the US (and I'm not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt) it is OK to make your own mp3 files for your own listening from CDs that you own or to make mp3 for your own use from albums that you own. It is not OK to download someone else's rips of their copies of albums that you also own. Likewise, publishers seem to view an ebook copy as a distinct product from the physical book. The argument that I have understood them to make is that owning one form of the book does not qualify you for a free copy of another form of the book any more than owning a hardcover of a book allows you to get a paperback for free.

In some countries, as I understand it, even making a scan of a book that you own is illegal. Laws vary from country to country so what is illegal in one may be legal where you live. (Since you did not identify where you live in your profile for it to display, this is the best I can answer.)

As Jon has pointed out above, part of the series is available exclusively through Amazon for the Kindle so there is no hope that all of the series will be legally available for the Sony until after that agreement expires, if ever.

daffy4u · 09-24-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWood

As Jon has pointed out above, part of the series is available exclusively through Amazon for the Kindle so there is no hope that all of the series will be legally available for the Sony until after that agreement expires, if ever.

The exclusivity deal should be over in a little over 4 months according to this post from September 3rd:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedd

ok. Teh deal is for 6 months (5 months left) and at the end of the deal WFR should be available in most if not all other formats.

JSWolf · 09-24-2008, 11:13 PM

One very important question was never answered about WFR.

Will the rest of the books in the series be out as eBooks? Never answered. We have enough book series that are only available incomplete that we don't need one more. So I am hoping that The Sowrd of Truth series is going to be released in eBook form as a complete series.

Tanellthyon · 09-24-2008, 11:44 PM

Thanks for the answers guys. I think it's honestly kinda stupid not to be entitled to a digital form of what you own since there are no production costs for a digital format. But that's just opinion and really has no effect on law. And yes, I'm in the US.

Well I hate Amazon has an exclusive deal.... Hopefully they'll move it to other formats soon as that's up, and not have this endless waiting period for something else (Tor, anyone?).

RWood · 09-25-2008, 12:28 AM

All of my SciFi comes from 4 sources: MobileRead free downloads (for the classic stuff and second largest amount of stuff), Project Gutenberg (more classic stuff to be posted at MobileRead when finished), Fictionwise, and Baen (the largest portion by far.)

RickyMaveety · 09-25-2008, 12:56 AM

In short ... no. If you own a physical copy of a book, it is not legal to download a digital version from other than a reputable digital bookseller, unless that book is no longer ... or never was ... subject to copyright.

acidzebra · 09-25-2008, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

In short ... no. If you own a physical copy of a book, it is not legal to download a digital version from other than a reputable digital bookseller

While I am sure you are right (and I'm not a lawyer and all), format shifting is (grudgingly) granted as fair use for a lot of other content. The content industry has fought and lost a few legal battles on that front.

Do you think a reasonable case could be made for "pbook to ebook" from a consumer standpoint? For example, would it be "fair use" if I scanned/digitized a pbook I own myself (and of course didn't distribute it further)?

wallcraft · 09-25-2008, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidzebra

Do you think a reasonable case could be made for "pbook to ebook" from a consumer standpoint? For example, would it be "fair use" if I scanned/digitized a pbook I own myself (and of course didn't distribute it further)?

As you say, this is a classic example of fair use and it is generally thought to be legal in the US. What is not legal, as RWood said, is to download someone else's scanned/digitized version of the same book even though you own the pbook. This may seem to be a distinction without a difference, but that is the law and there has been at least one case like this for music where the downloader was held liable. Why anyone bothered to bring the case in the first place is a fair question, but sometimes legal proceedings have a momentum all their own.

axel77 · 09-25-2008, 04:03 AM

Well at us (some parts in europe) they explained that downloading an mp3 if you own the CD is actually legal.

The one uploading is still illegal.

Its pretty sure not as easy teasy legal as some here like to view it, as long my guess is wrong, and they are lawyers with the expertfield of copyright.

Shaggy · 09-25-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallcraft

As you say, this is a classic example of fair use and it is generally thought to be legal in the US. What is not legal, as RWood said, is to download someone else's scanned/digitized version of the same book even though you own the pbook. This may seem to be a distinction without a difference, but that is the law and there has been at least one case like this for music where the downloader was held liable. Why anyone bothered to bring the case in the first place is a fair question, but sometimes legal proceedings have a momentum all their own.

If you can legally make your own eBook from a pBook that you own, then downloading the same eBook being illegal is just stupid. Technically that may be the law, but what's the point? The end result is the same.

Slite · 09-25-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

If you can legally make your own eBook from a pBook that you own, then downloading the same eBook being illegal is just stupid. Technically that may be the law, but what's the point? The end result is the same.

Whom ever claimed laws werent stupid? If there are laws prohibiting you from pushing live mooses out of ariplanes... It's the law, live with it. Sort of

Xenophon · 09-25-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

If you can legally make your own eBook from a pBook that you own, then downloading the same eBook being illegal is just stupid. Technically that may be the law, but what's the point? The end result is the same.

Wearing my techie hat I agree with you. But when I start thinking like a 'troublemaker' I see examples like this:

I hold you up at knife-point and take a book from you. I then stuff the price of the book in your pocket and walk away. Obviously this should be legal, because the end result is just the same as if I just bought the book from you in the first place. Right?

The analogy here is clearly not perfect. But the point is that end results are not the only consideration; process matters too.

Xenophon

bill_mchale · 09-25-2008, 10:02 AM

Shaggy,
I think it is probably a matter of enforcement. If 90% of book downloaders only downloaded books that they already owned, it would be very difficult to sift through all the downloaders and determine who was legitimately downloading said books and who was doing it illegally.

Another argument might be that since the person who uploads the copyrighted work is doing so without permission and therefore illegally, that by downloading said work, you are participating in the original crime of uploading the work.

09-24-2008, 10:30 PM	#1
Tanellthyon Junior Member Posts: 8 Karma: 10 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Sony PRS-505 (Blue)	Question about legalities Hi there, I don't know if this question's been asked yet or not (spent a while looking for a similar thread and couldn't find one). Assuming one owns a real, physical copy of a book, is it legal to download the digital version? E.G. I own Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, and since doesn't seem to be available anywhere (even though it previously was), is it legal to download from the...rather...shadowy...sites? And don't get me wrong, I'm not out to rip anyone off. If anything, I'd buy the entire series were it released on Sony's (or anybody else's) store. But it's not, and I own the real books anyway. Just want to be able to carry it around more conveniently. So if anybody can point out any laws, or experiences, or anything like that, I'd appreciate it. Thanks NOTE: Just remembered, in most other formats, if you own a real copy, digital copies are okay to download. E.G. if you own a video game, it's okay to download the emulator/ROM version of it, or to download MP3s of a CD you own. Does this also apply to eBooks?

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09-24-2008, 10:35 PM	#2
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,897 Karma: 128597114 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Wizard's First Rule is available as an exclusive eBook at Amazon.

09-24-2008, 10:57 PM	#3
RWood Technogeezer Posts: 7,233 Karma: 1601464 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Device: Sony PRS-500	As I understand the rulings in the US (and I'm not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt) it is OK to make your own mp3 files for your own listening from CDs that you own or to make mp3 for your own use from albums that you own. It is not OK to download someone else's rips of their copies of albums that you also own. Likewise, publishers seem to view an ebook copy as a distinct product from the physical book. The argument that I have understood them to make is that owning one form of the book does not qualify you for a free copy of another form of the book any more than owning a hardcover of a book allows you to get a paperback for free. In some countries, as I understand it, even making a scan of a book that you own is illegal. Laws vary from country to country so what is illegal in one may be legal where you live. (Since you did not identify where you live in your profile for it to display, this is the best I can answer.) As Jon has pointed out above, part of the series is available exclusively through Amazon for the Kindle so there is no hope that all of the series will be legally available for the Sony until after that agreement expires, if ever.

09-24-2008, 11:13 PM	#5
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,897 Karma: 128597114 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	One very important question was never answered about WFR. Will the rest of the books in the series be out as eBooks? Never answered. We have enough book series that are only available incomplete that we don't need one more. So I am hoping that The Sowrd of Truth series is going to be released in eBook form as a complete series.

09-24-2008, 11:44 PM	#6
Tanellthyon Junior Member Posts: 8 Karma: 10 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Sony PRS-505 (Blue)	Thanks for the answers guys. I think it's honestly kinda stupid not to be entitled to a digital form of what you own since there are no production costs for a digital format. But that's just opinion and really has no effect on law. And yes, I'm in the US. Well I hate Amazon has an exclusive deal.... Hopefully they'll move it to other formats soon as that's up, and not have this endless waiting period for something else (Tor, anyone?).

09-25-2008, 12:28 AM	#7
RWood Technogeezer Posts: 7,233 Karma: 1601464 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Device: Sony PRS-500	All of my SciFi comes from 4 sources: MobileRead free downloads (for the classic stuff and second largest amount of stuff), Project Gutenberg (more classic stuff to be posted at MobileRead when finished), Fictionwise, and Baen (the largest portion by far.)

09-25-2008, 12:56 AM	#8
RickyMaveety Holy S**T!!! Posts: 5,213 Karma: 108401 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Diego, California!! Device: Kindle and iPad	In short ... no. If you own a physical copy of a book, it is not legal to download a digital version from other than a reputable digital bookseller, unless that book is no longer ... or never was ... subject to copyright.

09-25-2008, 04:03 AM	#11
axel77 Fanatic Posts: 584 Karma: 914 Join Date: Mar 2008 Device: iliad	Well at us (some parts in europe) they explained that downloading an mp3 if you own the CD is actually legal. The one uploading is still illegal. Its pretty sure not as easy teasy legal as some here like to view it, as long my guess is wrong, and they are lawyers with the expertfield of copyright.

09-25-2008, 10:02 AM	#15
bill_mchale Wizard Posts: 1,451 Karma: 1550000 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Maryland, USA Device: Nook Simple Touch, HPC Evo 4G LTE	Shaggy, I think it is probably a matter of enforcement. If 90% of book downloaders only downloaded books that they already owned, it would be very difficult to sift through all the downloaders and determine who was legitimately downloading said books and who was doing it illegally. Another argument might be that since the person who uploads the copyrighted work is doing so without permission and therefore illegally, that by downloading said work, you are participating in the original crime of uploading the work.

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