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Old 08-12-2020, 01:47 PM   #31
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The real reason has nothing to do with bloat and security. The real reason is because they can. Their customers don't care and apple don't care about the very few customers that need to run legacy software.
Actually, it does matter (bloat, security)...as well as efficiency. Keeping up support for legacy technologies comes at the cost of holding back new technologies.

But, Apple makes those choices. And for some people, Apple won't be the appropriate platform because of those choices. And yet, if Apple makes the right bets, then they are rewarded by folks choosing Apple.

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I think it is a very intelligent move of their part. They removed the need to keep a sane multilib setup and that without bothering the majority of their users.

The same for the price bump: a very intelligent move. They still sell products with an even higher margin. They are going to do that until sales drop.
Apple pricing is a whole 'nother subject. But, Apple always has the overall user experience in mind....and believe their bottom line will benefit if they make the right choices for their users.

Take the whole "iPad won't run Flash" hubbub. There were those who lambasted Apple for being greedy....making people use the app store. But really, Flash was both a performance and security nightmare...which Apple knew well with years of Flash issues on Macs.

Also, Apple knew that the users would be served best by developers developing iPad (and iPhone) specific software that took advantages of the innovative technologies Apple was working so hard to put into their products. Having developers work to the "least common denominator" wasn't going to be the best experience.

But that meant developers would have to code specifically for Apple products. Which was harder on developers. BUT - as was proved out - what was harder for the developers was also more financially rewarding...for the developers.

To this day, even with Android's huge unit marketshare advantage - developers make more money on iPhone/iPad than they do on Android.

Apple CAN'T just do foolish "anti-customer, anti-developer" things. Despite complaints - Apple has developed, and fostered the development, of an amazing ecosystem with a billion of the most lucrative customers to have. There is fierce competition for developers, fierce competition for customers, fierce pricing competition from competitors.

Everything that Apple does isn't necessarily the best thing "for me". Apple doesn't try to please every segment of every market. But because they focus so well, and make tough decisions that prove themselves over time...they have built up the most loyal customer and developer base.
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:36 PM   #32
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For me, I wat to be the one to make the decision if my hardware is too old/unable to properly run the new OS version. I run some 32-bit programs that I'd rather not give up. With Windows, I don't have to give them up in order to run the latest 64-bit Windows. I want a machine where I can upgrade some of the parts when I am able to afford them or my needs change.

Windows is better then OSX (IMHO) because it-does a pretty good job of keeping compatible with older versions. My laptop originally came with Windows 8. I upgraded it to Windows 8.1 and then Windows 10. I'm still able to run all of the same software as I was running with Windows 8.1.
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:42 PM   #33
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For me, I wat to be the one to make the decision if my hardware is too old/unable to properly run the new OS version. I run some 32-bit programs that I'd rather not give up. With Windows, I don't have to give them up in order to run the latest 64-bit Windows. I want a machine where I can upgrade some of the parts when I am able to afford them or my needs change.

Windows is better then OSX (IMHO) because it-does a pretty good job of keeping compatible with older versions. My laptop originally came with Windows 8. I upgraded it to Windows 8.1 and then Windows 10. I'm still able to run all of the same software as I was running with Windows 8.1.
I agree with your logic. For your priorities...Windows is a better fit.
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:52 PM   #34
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I agree with your logic. For your priorities...Windows is a better fit.
But how is OSX a better fit if you have software you use on an older OSX that cannot run on the newest OSX? Also, for all of those stuck using an older OSX, what happens when some software you want to use won't work?

Apple is known for compatibility issues with OSX updates.
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Old 08-12-2020, 04:48 PM   #35
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But how is OSX a better fit if you have software you use on an older OSX that cannot run on the newest OSX? Also, for all of those stuck using an older OSX, what happens when some software you want to use won't work?

Apple is known for compatibility issues with OSX updates.
I suppose it's the same for people who's software only runs on Windows 7. It's not like every Windows transition is smooth.

What of folks who have a huge library of VHS tapes?

Technology marches on. Myself, I'm quite excited by the upcoming move to Apple Silicon -- even though it may cause me to need two computers (as if I didn't already have several). I need Windows and Linux. I may be forced back into the Windows world eventually if some software base solution doesn't appear over the next 8 years.

Maybe a Windows virtual desktop in the cloud will be more economical by then. For example, I recently retired a couple old servers (they were already old when I bought them) in favor of a hosted linux solution. 32gig ram, quad core for $99/yr. I'm saving $50 a month in electricity alone. But that meets my linux needs, but not my Windows need.

Right now, I have a Windows laptop supplied by work. I could use it for everything, but I prefer my Mac. So I remote into the Windows machine when I need to use Windows software. My mac and windows laptops sit next to each other on my desk....but I use my Mac as primary, connected to a 43" 4k tv.

Everyone's needs, likes and budget is different.
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Old 08-13-2020, 08:44 AM   #36
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I suppose it's the same for people who's software only runs on Windows 7. It's not like every Windows transition is smooth.

What of folks who have a huge library of VHS tapes?

Technology marches on. Myself, I'm quite excited by the upcoming move to Apple Silicon -- even though it may cause me to need two computers (as if I didn't already have several). I need Windows and Linux. I may be forced back into the Windows world eventually if some software base solution doesn't appear over the next 8 years.

Maybe a Windows virtual desktop in the cloud will be more economical by then. For example, I recently retired a couple old servers (they were already old when I bought them) in favor of a hosted linux solution. 32gig ram, quad core for $99/yr. I'm saving $50 a month in electricity alone. But that meets my linux needs, but not my Windows need.

Right now, I have a Windows laptop supplied by work. I could use it for everything, but I prefer my Mac. So I remote into the Windows machine when I need to use Windows software. My mac and windows laptops sit next to each other on my desk....but I use my Mac as primary, connected to a 43" 4k tv.

Everyone's needs, likes and budget is different.
Yep, I switched from Windows to Mac back when Windows changed their licensing and I found myself having to convince some customer service grunt who barely spoke English that I wasn't pirating Windows every time I change one of the components on my PC.

Started off with a powerPC based mac mini to see if I liked it, then got a Mac Pro. It doesn't bother me to upgrade every 4 to 6 years. Eventually, the USB connection for my weather station is going to stop working with new macs. I'll figure it out what I'm going to do about it when it happens. One of the down side of macs is that manufacturers of specialize hardware don't exactly provide great support for them.

There are aspects of macs (and iPhone and iPads) that I don't like, but I like Apple a whole lot more than I like Microsoft. For the most part, I've figured out ways to do what I need to on the mac.
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:25 PM   #37
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There are aspects of macs (and iPhone and iPads) that I don't like, but I like Apple a whole lot more than I like Microsoft. For the most part, I've figured out ways to do what I need to on the mac.
Yep. Who knows...you might get by with a Raspberry Pi for your weather station

Horses for courses.

I'm happy to see Msft, Google and Samsung teaming up a bit to allow Android apps to run (via Android phone) on Windows. Look forward to that not being a Samsung exclusive.

I don't see anything replacing my iPhone/iPad. But there is just too much Windows software that only runs on Windows for me to be free of Windows any time soon. And I like Windows just fine. I just like the Mac a bit more due to the overall ecosystem.

For me, Linux is all about server software: databases, web servers and the like. Plus Docker.
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:28 PM   #38
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But how is OSX a better fit if you have software you use on an older OSX that cannot run on the newest OSX? Also, for all of those stuck using an older OSX, what happens when some software you want to use won't work?

Apple is known for compatibility issues with OSX updates.
Apple is also known for getting it's developers to upgrade their software. You'll know well in advance, if you are paying attention, if important software you use isn't being upgraded. It's not like Apple breaks everything from one version to the next.

There were years of notice that 32 support was coming to an end. Even Microsoft EVENTUALLY refuses to support their old Windows versions. And no matter HOW LONG that is....there are always people caught unprepared. You know...hospitals, Navy ships, Nuclear power plants.
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:54 PM   #39
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Apple is also known for getting it's developers to upgrade their software. You'll know well in advance, if you are paying attention, if important software you use isn't being upgraded. It's not like Apple breaks everything from one version to the next.

There were years of notice that 32 support was coming to an end. Even Microsoft EVENTUALLY refuses to support their old Windows versions. And no matter HOW LONG that is....there are always people caught unprepared. You know...hospitals, Navy ships, Nuclear power plants.
There is a world of difference between not running an OS and not running apps. Of course you need a 64bit OS to run a 64bit machine but the OS Microsoft supplies will run 32 bit apps just fine. They still have 32 bit support and I run D-Fend Reloaded and then can run 16 bit apps including DOS apps as well.

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Old 08-13-2020, 08:07 PM   #40
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There is a world of difference between not running an OS and not running apps. Of course you need a 64bit OS to run a 64bit machine but the OS Microsoft supplies will run 32 bit apps just fine. They still have 32 bit support and I run D-Fend Reloaded and then can run 16 bit apps including DOS apps as well.

Dale
That's pretty much the difference between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft supports legacy apps almost forever. They made that clear many, many years ago when I was still writing Windows apps. Apple went the other way and purposefully broke undocumented API calls to try to keep everyone sticking with the documented API. For the most part, as long as application developers kept up with things, the apps worked. It was the orphaned apps that stopped working over time.

The consequences of those two different design decisions was that Windows came close to collapsing under it's own weight. It was a big reason that certain Windows releases were major failures. Mac didn't have that issue.

The big thing to recall is that Microsoft is a software company that made a lot of it's money by selling the operating system to hardware manufacturers, (very few people actually bought the Windows operating system as a stand alone) and the end users didn't want their copy of Word Perfect to suddenly stop working. I would not be shocked if there were still people out there running DOS and Windows 3.1.

Apple is a hardware company that gives the operating system away for free. They make the upgrades to the new version free, while Microsoft charges for their upgrades.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:06 PM   #41
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That's pretty much the difference between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft supports legacy apps almost forever. They made that clear many, many years ago when I was still writing Windows apps. Apple went the other way and purposefully broke undocumented API calls to try to keep everyone sticking with the documented API. For the most part, as long as application developers kept up with things, the apps worked. It was the orphaned apps that stopped working over time.

The consequences of those two different design decisions was that Windows came close to collapsing under it's own weight. It was a big reason that certain Windows releases were major failures. Mac didn't have that issue.

The big thing to recall is that Microsoft is a software company that made a lot of it's money by selling the operating system to hardware manufacturers, (very few people actually bought the Windows operating system as a stand alone) and the end users didn't want their copy of Word Perfect to suddenly stop working. I would not be shocked if there were still people out there running DOS and Windows 3.1.

Apple is a hardware company that gives the operating system away for free. They make the upgrades to the new version free, while Microsoft charges for their upgrades.
Well, there have not been any paid upgrades since Windows 10 for several years (unless you are upgrading from Home to Professional or something like that). And I haven’t seen any indication that will change soon. Their income is more or less split equally 3 ways: productivity & business processes, cloud services, and personal computing (Office subscriptions, Windows licenses, hardware). Cloud services is growing the fastest.

My computers (apart from the one my employer bequeaths for work) are both over 10 years old, one MacBook Pro and an HP EliteBook. I don’t really need a new computer, but will probably get my wife an iMac of some sort (21.5 most likely). Her Windows computer is nearly as old as mine and needs external fan blowing on it as one of the screws holding the CPU heat sink down sheared off, and she is constantly cursing Microsoft for all the constant updates and baffling notifications they send out.
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:10 PM   #42
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There is a world of difference between not running an OS and not running apps. Of course you need a 64bit OS to run a 64bit machine but the OS Microsoft supplies will run 32 bit apps just fine. They still have 32 bit support and I run D-Fend Reloaded and then can run 16 bit apps including DOS apps as well.

Dale
Yes, Microsoft has been exemplary in this area. And yes, Windows suffers because of the need to do this. It's not all benefits and now drawbacks.

And EVEN SO....Microsoft still stops supporting older versions of Windows...and gives multi-year heads up when support will stop....and STILL companies, organizations, governments and individuals are left using unsupported Windows with no money in the budget to buy new computers.
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