Is piracy likely to harm ebook sales?

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The agency model is more likely to harm eBook sales.

Absolutely. That and Geo restrictions are going to turn more legitimate customers to source ebooks via other means and that will include the darknet.

They never learn or perhaps they simply do not care.

[Solicitous]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

Though flawed, and in some ways overreaching in its conclusions, it indicates that there was and still is a sizable loss in "potential" revenues. I place the figure in the hundreds of millions of dollars, while MPAA estimates billions. Why is this of concern to me, and how does the study apply to the book publishing industry? I stated in another post that history is repeating itself. The offshore component of the pirates is costing western democratic countries millions of dollars. This affects our trade balance with China, one the most egregious copyright violators. How would they feel if we began copying their currency, and distributed it freely throughout the world?

If I chop a tree down in the forest, and the landowner does not hear me do it, is this stealing or not? The specious argument reads as follows: If I had to pay for it, I would not have stolen it. Therefore, I am not costing the owner anything!

You argument there is valid for physical goods. I will use shoes and an example. You can steal a pair of shoes from a shoeshop. This means the shoe shop owner now has lost money because the pair of shoes that cost X dollars to him to resell have now gone. This is different to the digital media which we are talking. If said shoeshop owner had a .jpeg of a pair of shoes and you took a copy without permission because he refused to sell it to you, has the shoeshop owner lost anything? Well no he still has his picture of a pair of shoes. What he has potentially lost is future revenue, because now you have a copy you aren't likely going to buy a copy from him in the future (and given that he refused in the first place you are likely to never buy from him at all) Now with digital media whether you sell 1 or 10,000 copies it still costs you the same to produce the initial digital file.

Now the "Honest Pirate". These people are everywhere. These are the ones who buy an album on iTunes only to have iTunes at some point give an error and find they have lost the entire album out of their collection, with the only option on the iTunes store is to buy it again (hang on, I bought it with your software from you which the software failed and now you want me to pay for it again?), so they pirate.

These are the ones who as I described earlier are given the runaround by TV stations. These are the people who suffer incredible pain in using digital media that is DRM encrypted, only to find because what they bought is a licence and not a product they can't return it. These are the ones who buy a computer with Windows on it only to have it, despite being registered, pop up notifications and shutdown because Microsoft feels the OS isn't registered - so they pirate a copy without that functionality.

Piracy is piracy, but what distinguishes Honest Pirates are their motivation for pirating. Their motivation is never because of greed or lack of ethical considerations.

[artemisblossom]

Well I can only speak from personal experience but publishers lost a sale from me very recently due to geographical restrictions. The book I wanted came out listed as US only (from Sony store) and I am in Canada. I tried every other ebook store I could think of, no one had it. I called Sony to ask about getting gift cards or pre paid credit cards but they told me it wouldn't work (not their fault I know). If I wanted this book I had no other choice but to buy the paper book or go to the dark net. The paper book I would need glasses to read (getting older and haven't gone to an eye Dr. yet to check into reading glasses) and besides I didn't buy an ebook reader to collect dust while I read paper books..................and there was a well formatted copy of this book on the internet in less than 9 hours after it was released. Am I proud of being a pirate? Absolutely not! and if I had a choice I would have bought it but it was just too difficult if not impossible to get the ebook legally.

[Steven Lake]

I've worked with FOSS and battled piracy myself, and I totally agree with CyGuy's comments. Pirates who steal stuff never intended to pay for it anyways, and if internet piracy didn't exist, people would still find ways to get copies of stuff for free. So since no sale would ever have occurred, it's not a lost sale. And yes, the agency model is likely to do tons more harm than good. Also, aside from the greedy, dishonest people who'd rather steal than pay for stuff, the other kind of piracy is what I think hurts more. This is people who *WILL* buy your stuff, and *WILL* pay for a copy, but have been forced to pirate your ebook because either A) it's good enough to read, but not good enough to be worth paying for, B) you did something stupid and locked it behind oppressive DRM, C) you priced your book above what most people consider reasonable for a book, or maybe just your book specifically, or D) you're a douche (like the MPAA/RIAA) and treat people like crap, so they fight back by getting their fix while preventing you from lining your pockets with their cash.

Either way, 90% of piracy doesn't need to occur. If distributors, writers, artists, companies, etc, etc, would all just get a clue, the people who would pay will pay, and those who won't will just go on doing what they've always done, and that's steal because they are dishonest douches.

[garbanzo]

i am absolutely unconvinced by the idea that a pirated copy of anything means a lost sale. at least not in my world. i almost always buy used. whether it's books or movies or music. no sense in spending $25 for a new copy of something when i can wait a few months and buy it for $8. in this respect, it makes no difference to the original publishers whether i buy something or download it.

and what about digital acquisitions of things that a person would have never paid money for in the first place?

consider Photoshop. every kid and their mother has it on their computer, but the vast majority of Photoshop users would have never purchased the app if they could not acquire a free copy. in fact, most Photoshop pirates only use it to re-size images and add inane effects to their myspace photos.

but every once in a while, a youngster will catch on, learn the ropes, and become adept at using the software. if said youngster then moves on to the professional world and finds a need to use Photoshop for commercial reasons, chances are they'll get their boss to buy it.

it's not unlike last year's Windows 7 public beta/RC run - get 'em hooked while it's free, and make 'em want to pay

[BillSmithBooks]

The biggest threat to publishers is not piracy, but the publishers themselves.

Personally, I would not consider piracy. Instead, if I can't find what I want at a reasonable price, I wait until I can get it used at a better price. As for ebooks, if I can't have it in a format and price that I consider reasonable, I buy the used printed book, which means a complete loss of revenue for publishers.

But what readers want is simple: reasonable prices, non-DRM, open formats (i.e., let me get the books I want at a fair price and let me read them on the device of my choosing, let me legally convert to the format I want).

If publishers offered that, piracy would be far less likely to be a threat to the publishing industry IMO.

I can think of dozens of books I would buy immediately if I could get them DRM-free in PDF or HTML...but the publishers will never get the money I have to offer because of their position.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

I have to hand you the reward for best oxymoron (Honest Pirate) of the year. Who is this Honest Pirate that you speak of? Would you have us laud Robin Book, new thief of Sherwood Forest?

Back in 2004, the MPAA commissioned a survey of movie piracy:

http://www.mpaa.org/press_releases/leksummarympa.pdf

Though flawed, and in some ways overreaching in its conclusions, it indicates that there was and still is a sizable loss in "potential" revenues. I place the figure in the hundreds of millions of dollars, while MPAA estimates billions. Why is this of concern to me, and how does the study apply to the book publishing industry? I stated in another post that history is repeating itself. The offshore component of the pirates is costing western democratic countries millions of dollars. This affects our trade balance with China, one the most egregious copyright violators. How would they feel if we began copying their currency, and distributed it freely throughout the world?

If I chop a tree down in the forest, and the landowner does not hear me do it, is this stealing or not? The specious argument reads as follows: If I had to pay for it, I would not have stolen it. Therefore, I am not costing the owner anything!

Look, we still live in a civilized nation, and without recompensing each other, we all suffer. If a pirate chooses to be honest, he should do a good deed, equal in value to his bad deed. Buy a print copy (or substitute title) from the publisher.

You should look up the word "potential". I could potentially earn £1,000 per day, does that mean that if someone uses a voluntary worker instead of me that they have stolen £1,000 from me?

You need to stop thinking of income that you would never have made as something you have lost. If you delete the entire internet just to stop people getting it for free, those people will just go back to either not reading at all or just reading in the library. Meanwhile you have lost all the extra income you are making now from the try-before-you-buy type downloaders.

[Kevin2960]

YES ..

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by BillSmithBooks

The biggest threat to publishers is not piracy, but the publishers themselves.

Personally, I would not consider piracy. Instead, if I can't find what I want at a reasonable price, I wait until I can get it used at a better price. As for ebooks, if I can't have it in a format and price that I consider reasonable, I buy the used printed book, which means a complete loss of revenue for publishers.

But what readers want is simple: reasonable prices, non-DRM, open formats (i.e., let me get the books I want at a fair price and let me read them on the device of my choosing, let me legally convert to the format I want).

If publishers offered that, piracy would be far less likely to be a threat to the publishing industry IMO.

I can think of dozens of books I would buy immediately if I could get them DRM-free in PDF or HTML...but the publishers will never get the money I have to offer because of their position.

That's my thought as well. Piracy has started me on the road to ebooks, and I've bought more ebooks these last years than I have have bought in paper.

But those stupid restrictions are chasing me away from the official stores again, because I simply can't find the books I want (anymore). Either they're just not available, or they're not available to me. The net result is the same: I will go look somewhere else.

[Solicitous]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

That's my thought as well. Piracy has started me on the road to ebooks, and I've bought more ebooks these last years than I have have bought in paper.

But those stupid restrictions are chasing me away from the official stores again, because I simply can't find the books I want (anymore). Either they're just not available, or they're not available to me. The net result is the same: I will go look somewhere else.

You and others who have mentioned similar reasons for 'searching elsewhere' for ebooks are exactly the people I was describing as "Honest Pirates". Had an ebook been for sale in a reasonable easy manner without requiring change of country and jumping through hoops etc, you would have gladly paid and bought all your ebooks, instead (due to primarily the publisher) are forced to go elsewhere.

If any publishers are reading this PLEASE understand, people are not pirating ebooks because they want to, they are doing it because they are forced to.

[garbanzo]

Originally Posted by Solicitous

If any publishers are reading this PLEASE understand, people are not pirating ebooks because they want to, they are doing it because they are forced to.

sorry, but this is utter crap. nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. the fact that you can't buy a particular luxury item that your heart desires does not justify going out and stealing it. it's like saying it's OK to buy drugs off the street because the government does not allow them to be sold commercially.

people pirate ebooks and everything else because they don't see any sense in paying pay for something when it can be acquired discretely and instantly from the comfort of their own home.

[Solicitous]

Originally Posted by garbanzo

sorry, but this is utter crap. nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. the fact that you can't buy a particular luxury item that your heart desires does not justify going out and stealing it. it's like saying it's OK to buy drugs off the street because the government does not allow them to be sold commercially.

people pirate ebooks and everything else because they don't see any sense in paying pay for something when it can be acquired discretely and instantly from the comfort of their own home.

Drugs are illegal, simple. Ebooks with GR are not illegal, they are publishers/booksellers being restrictive. Why can I buy X book locally here in Aus, or from overseas and have it shipped to my home but can't buy the ebook version because I live here in Australia?

In the situation of GR I am able and willing to buy the ebooks, credit card ready and account created but am refused sale. Its not like I am refused sale because the book is banned here, paperback is available. The demand for ebooks are there, and if supply isn't going to meet demand then people will inherently find a path that will satisfy that demand.

The music industry woke up to that fact, the movie industry has (remember region 1,2,3,4 etc DVDs and players in an attempt to restrict sales in certain regions, now I don't know if it is possible to buy a sole region 4 DVD player in Australia, they are all multi region).

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

It should certainly help with the sales of eBook readers and tablet computers, which is where people should spend their money anyway, very little should have to be spent for content.

I don't follow that line of reasoning at all, I'm afraid. Isn't that like saying "if you buy a DVD player, very little should have to be spent on DVDs"? Why does buying a player for a particular medium mean that you should then not have to spend money on the actual media?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Solicitous

If any publishers are reading this PLEASE understand, people are not pirating ebooks because they want to, they are doing it because they are forced to.

Forced to? Who is "forcing" them to? Why not just read something else instead? Or buy the book in paper?

[Kevin2960]

Originally Posted by garbanzo

sorry, but this is utter crap. nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. the fact that you can't buy a particular luxury item that your heart desires does not justify going out and stealing it. it's like saying it's OK to buy drugs off the street because the government does not allow them to be sold commercially.

people pirate ebooks and everything else because they don't see any sense in paying pay for something when it can be acquired discretely and instantly from the comfort of their own home.

EXACTLY