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Old 03-29-2012, 06:13 AM   #91
Sil_liS
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Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg View Post
Re requests for evidence of harm, this controversial Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) article is frequently linked:

Unsafe At Any Airspeed? Cellphones and other electronics are more of a risk than you think
The article presents clear evidence that devices are on during flights, some even transmit in the GPS range, calls are being made and the airplanes are fine.
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We were able to clearly identify some cellphone signals that originated from on board the aircraft [again, see chart, "Cellular Stands Out"]. Ours was a conservative estimate, since a call made at the other end of the cabin from the instrumentation would be below the threshold we could observe. Our measurements also found emissions from other onboard sources--devices used by passengers--in the frequency used by GPS.

Our research shows clearly that, in violation of FCC and FAA rules, calls are regularly made from commercial aircraft. Results from our analysis imply that calls from on board scheduled commercial aircraft in the eastern United States occur at a rate of one to four per flight. In addition, we saw other signals that suggest that at least one passenger neglects to turn off his or her cellphone on most flights.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:20 AM   #92
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So what if airplanes use GPS, how many thousands of GPS devices are there crammed into a major city that don't jam each other? All those cameras, cell phones, GPS navigation systems, plain old GPSes, and all that should be unusable if their bandwidth is that small.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:54 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
They made many, many tests. There was no measurable interference even when every seat was occupied and every single person was running and using a device, including cell phones. It is clearly a matter of going against the public perception of danger they have created over the years and of bureaucratic inertia. Nobody wants to be the first to make a move. And nobody is pushing hard for it. So it is us frequent travellers who lose out.
Citation, please.

/JB
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Old 03-29-2012, 05:59 PM   #94
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Quote:
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One could say that telling people to stop eReading is pointless because a stowed Kindle may still be communicating by radio. Without question, some Kindle owners accidentally leave the wireless on when putting their device away. However, I also think that the current regulations reduce the amount of radio traffic in the cabin.
I think that a problem with the "ban everything just in case" rule is that it becomes so much noise that people start ignoring the rules that do make sense. I agree completely that devices with radios or built in GPS need to have those features disabled on an airplane. I think that a more targeted message would have a higher rate of compliance. Let people read their ereaders and use their tablets during takeoff, but make each passenger with one confirm to the flight attendant that the WiFi or 3G is turned off. As it is right now, people do what I do; hide the device and use it when the flight attendants aren't looking. Making people put them away during take off and landing does nothing to increase compliance.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:25 AM   #95
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How high of a risk are you willing to subject yourself and your family members to?

1 in a million? 1 in a billion?

And the issue is, there is no way to quantify the unrestricted use of any electronic device.

As to how far they transmit, I may have said this before, but with the proper equipment, you can "read" a computer from quite a distance. That is why secure computing is done on specially shielded computers that meet Tempest standards. It does not take much power to transmit a long distance.

As for a Faraday cage inside the aircraft, that would work. But at the expense of retrofitting every airplane. And the expense of carrying the extra weight (cost in reduced payload and additional fuel used). And while you are doing this retrofit, you have some planes where it is safe and some where it is not. That gets people VERY confused.

It is just that people are so selfish and self absorbed, that they cannot be bothered to be inconvenienced at ALL.

And also, everytime I have had an extended wait (beyond normal) on the ground, they have allowed cell phones and other electrronic devices. They just make you turn them off when they finally get going.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:26 AM   #96
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I haven't brought a plane down yet.
The good news is the first time you do, it will probably be the last time. Since you will be on the flight.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:09 AM   #97
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The last time I flew they made me turn off my hand held free cell game (those boxy things for $10 at wallyworld), but it doesn't have an off/on switch; it just times out itself. I put it away but really!?
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:05 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polly View Post
I think that a problem with the "ban everything just in case" rule is that it becomes so much noise that people start ignoring the rules that do make sense. I agree completely that devices with radios or built in GPS need to have those features disabled on an airplane. I think that a more targeted message would have a higher rate of compliance. Let people read their ereaders and use their tablets during takeoff, but make each passenger with one confirm to the flight attendant that the WiFi or 3G is turned off. As it is right now, people do what I do; hide the device and use it when the flight attendants aren't looking. Making people put them away during take off and landing does nothing to increase compliance.
Well, my cell phone was on and not in plane mode during part of the flight. I thought I had switched it off, as it was useless anyway, guess i messed up there.

Technology evolve, device can emit less wave to work, plane sensors can be shielded better.
On the other hand, on long flights, the plane goes up quickly, so it's not much on a pain. On shorter flights though....
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:59 AM   #99
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How high of a risk are you willing to subject yourself and your family members to?
People talk on the phone on planes and nothing happens. You would be taking a higher risk if you drink too much water.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:21 AM   #100
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Quote:
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How high of a risk are you willing to subject yourself and your family members to?

1 in a million? 1 in a billion?

wiki sez...
Quote:
... The number of deaths per passenger mile on commercial airlines in the United States between 1995 and 2000 is about 3 deaths per 10 billion passenger miles.
NHTSA documents 1.14 deaths per 100 million miles in 2009. That's road, not air. Feel free to round to 1.

Calculate your personal risk by dividing 100,000,000 by whatever happens to be the sum of your current and past odometers.

OTOH, every roadway death we hear about seems to involve a cell phone.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:18 AM   #101
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I agree completely that devices with radios or built in GPS need to have those features disabled on an airplane.
GPS receivers don't transmit, so really there's no reason it should need disabled.

Now that said, I have no problem with them having people turn everything off, I'd just as soon not have the 30 people in front of me all trying to figure out what they have to do with their electronics in the event that you suddenly have to evacuate the plane on takeoff or landing. And I definitely don't want to reach the day when I have to listen to everyone on the plane talking on their cell phone for the entire trip.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:39 PM   #102
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Ummmm... All receivers transmit - at least a little bit (leakage from the internal oscillators).

Rich
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:57 PM   #103
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Well, my cell phone was on and not in plane mode during part of the flight. I thought I had switched it off, as it was useless anyway, guess i messed up there.
Yep, you definitely blew it; because your plane crashed and you're now speaking to us from the other side. Would you do me a favor and say hi to my Aunt Agnes? She's a bit eccentric and wears long, Victorian gowns; like something out of a steampunk novel.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:08 PM   #104
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I think the figures here are global, and they have:
Quote:
In 2010 there were 26 fatal airline accidents, causing the deaths of 817 passengers and crew. This spans all types of airline operation, including scheduled and non-scheduled passenger flights, jet and turboprop, plus non-passenger operations such as pure freight or positioning, and compares with 2009's figures of 28 accidents causing 749 deaths.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:24 PM   #105
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Morbid question, but are airline accidents always fatal? Where are the stats for non-fatal accidents? For example, there are two schools of thought with regards to paying for a seat for your under-two child and strapping him in the car seat. One school of thought: a car seat is not going to help if the plane goes down. Other school of thought: there could be a turbulence accident, a taxiing accident, or another kind of accident where the car seat would save your child's life. But what are the stats about this?

To try to bring this a bit back on topic, I have also heard this as reasoning for why your ereader should be put away: it could be a projectile in... some kind of situation. Setting aside the fact that a pbook weighs the same or more than an ereader, what are the statistics on "projectile accidents" on a plane?

eP
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