How to get KF8 to open at the cover?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But why do you actually care, Jon? You don't own a Kindle, and don't read Kindle books. Is this just another one of your "let's bash Amazon" threads?

Now you're getting personal because you know your wrong.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Now you're getting personal because you know your wrong.

I'm not getting personal; I'm curious to know why you're getting so worked up about about the behaviour of something that you don't actually use. You've made your choice of book reader, and that's absolutely fine, but you seem to take great delight in pointing out non-existent flaws in the Kindle. Your personal preferences are not absolute truths that everyone else has to conform to.

[JSWolf]

I'm asking because someone I know has a Kindle and would like the eBooks to open at the cover.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm asking because someone I know has a Kindle and would like the eBooks to open at the cover.

And you now know that the answer is "you can't".

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm asking because someone I know has a Kindle and would like the eBooks to open at the cover.

Jon:

I know, my sweet, that you will not like my response on this, but:

It is, absolutely, Amazon's policy that the SRL ("start reading location") is to be the first full page of text that is designated as the beginning of the content. For those books uploaded that are done via Word or PDF, Amazon sets the SRL, and that's the first page of Chapter 1. For books in ePUB/MOBI, the intake software (this is AFTER the publisher pushes "save and publish," which is called the Publishing Workflow or PW) looks at where the creator of the book set the SRL---and then promptly changes it to the first page of the first chapter.

Amazon's use data indicates that unfortunately, your friend is in the minority, by a huge number. Most people, apparently, flip the book open and if the SRL doesn't automatically go to the first page of the book, they flip there themselves. Most users, apparently, have precisely ZERO interest in the cover, other than using it as a quickie locator on their Book Carousel.

I tell my clients that covers are click-bait--period. Nothing more, nothing less. Some will get upset by that idea, particularly if the cover is particularly close to their heart (which, BTW, usually means it's pretty awful, in my experience); but that's how it is.

Jon, I have to say, given the use statistics, really, your friend should resign his- or herself to clicking the GoTo, and then clicking Cover. It's not that much to do.

@Notjohn: generally, if you set no SRL in the book, in an ePUB, it stands some percentage chance that it will open at the cover, at Amazon, but understand that it's a fluke. A somewhat predictable fluke, but a fluke nonetheless. You actually CAN set the SRL, and not have it show up in the TOC, but it's a few steps to do, and, no offense, but really, your book buyers and blog readers can all live without our methodology. :-)

You boys sure know how to set up such fun conversations.

Hitch

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But why do you actually care, Jon? You don't own a Kindle, and don't read Kindle books. Is this just another one of your "let's bash Amazon" threads?

My attitude is identical to Jon's, and I have been using the KDP/DTP since November 2007, the month it was opened to us. The only e-readers I own are a K3 Keyboard, a Fire 7, and a Paperwhite. (Oops, no, I do own a Nook, but it has been years since I used it.) I sell 80 percent of my ebooks through the Kindle platform, so I design them with the Kindle in mind. The only difference between what I upload to the KDP and to Draft2Digital and Google Play is that I take the cover out of the epub that goes to the KDP.

I want my books to open at the cover, and three-quarters of them do. I accomplish that by not specifying ANY SRL ("text" in Sigil-speak).

I like to chat up people on airplanes whom I see reading on a Kindle. At least half of them not only don't know the author of the book they're reading, but they don't even know its TITLE.

I want them to see my cover, and the title page, and the table of contents, at least once before they get to the goodies.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I want my books to open at the cover, and three-quarters of them do. I accomplish that by not specifying ANY SRL ("text" in Sigil-speak).

I understand why you might want to do this as an author, but I very much doubt that it's what your typical reader wants. When I open a book I want it to open at the page at which I can start reading, not have to wade through pages of advertising material, legal disclaimers, quotes from reviewers saying how wonderful your books are, etc, before I reach the first page proper.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I understand why you might want to do this as an author, but I very much doubt that it's what your typical reader wants. When I open a book I want it to open at the page at which I can start reading, not have to wade through pages of advertising material, legal disclaimers, quotes from reviewers saying how wonderful your books are, etc, before I reach the first page proper.

Sometimes the start of the book is wrong. It starts at the first chapter missing thing like the dedication, frontmatter, cast of characters, and other things. So starting at the cover would make sure that everything that should be read is presented to the reader.

[DaleDe]

Actually I like iBooks in this case. They load and display the cover momentarily every time the book is opened, even if you are in the middle. This display stays on the screen while the program is loading the page and getting the page count.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I understand why you might want to do this as an author, but I very much doubt that it's what your typical reader wants. When I open a book I want it to open at the page at which I can start reading, not have to wade through pages of advertising material, legal disclaimers, quotes from reviewers saying how wonderful your books are, etc, before I reach the first page proper.

And, ^ there it is. That's the predominant behavior of Amazon's readers, and that's what Amazon is responding to--not what the publisher wants.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sometimes the start of the book is wrong. It starts at the first chapter missing thing like the dedication, frontmatter, cast of characters, and other things. So starting at the cover would make sure that everything that should be read is presented to the reader.

AND, this is also true. We ran into this, some years back, with a client that was running a real-live Treasure Hunt, and clues were in the novel. But the crucial information was embedded in a prologue, and sure as sh*t, the SRL was opening far after the prologue. What did we do?

Simple. We defied bookmaking convention (which, let's face it, kiddies, is going straight to the dogs any-damned-way) and moved the Prologue past the TOC, so that the sequence went : Cover, title page, other stuff, TOC, Prologue, Ch.1...and that works.

Offered FWIW.

Hitch

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Because you see the cover when looking at your list of books.

(On the hardware Kindle at least) you don't see the cover at all when you have the library in list format, as I do. And if you have it in grid view, you only see a thumbnail.

Since Kindle brings you back to the last page you were at, if it did open at the cover that would only be once. It's not like you have to click past it every time.

Though IMHO most covers designed for colour look pretty crummy in greyscale at whatever size; still I want to see it and find it annoying when I open new book I have to click back and back until I find the cover.

But I admit, after working in publishing for 25 years, what I usually do when I first get a book is to assess how it's put together, whether everything is there and working, before I can relax and think about actually reading it.

Originally Posted by Hitch

moved the Prologue past the TOC, so that the sequence went : Cover, title page, other stuff, TOC, Prologue, Ch.1...and that works.

The prologue is usually an essential part of the book, in fiction especially. "A long time ago in a galaxy far away..." and so is effectively Chapter 0; I treat it like that and always put it after the TOC. If untitled, I might not list it in the TOC though. For an ebook, I would, just to be sure it isn't ignored. An introduction by someone else than the author can go before the TOC, if just fluff, or more likely after if it's a more substantial one.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

<snip>



The prologue is usually an essential part of the book, in fiction especially. "A long time ago in a galaxy far away..." and so is effectively Chapter 0; I treat it like that and always put it after the TOC. If untitled, I might not list it in the TOC though. For an ebook, I would, just to be sure it isn't ignored. An introduction by someone else than the author can go before the TOC, if just fluff, or more likely after if it's a more substantial one.

Alan:

The change, in modern bookmaking is, of course, the TOC. For dog's years, most fiction books didn't have Tables of Content, certainly not in genre fiction. But now, they do, and print is doing the same thing, to conform to the ebooks.

Normally, the prologue would appear before the bastard title (half-title) page, if one exists. And after any TOC. Now, you have to be SURE it's after the TOC, so as not to run afoul of the PW (Publishing Workflow). I have any number of clients that don't want it there; they want it BEFORE the TOC (no matter what I say about historical placement or anything else), and that is a major damned headache.

OT, kinda: Anyone else here want to bitch-slap auto-corrects, etc., that PERSIST on insisting that "prologue" is PROLOG?????? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Alan:

The change, in modern bookmaking is, of course, the TOC. For dog's years, most fiction books didn't have Tables of Content, certainly not in genre fiction. But now, they do, and print is doing the same thing, to conform to the ebooks.

Normally, the prologue would appear before the bastard title (half-title) page, if one exists. And after any TOC. Now, you have to be SURE it's after the TOC, so as not to run afoul of the PW (Publishing Workflow). I have any number of clients that don't want it there; they want it BEFORE the TOC (no matter what I say about historical placement or anything else), and that is a major damned headache.

OT, kinda: Anyone else here want to bitch-slap auto-corrects, etc., that PERSIST on insisting that "prologue" is PROLOG?????? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Hitch

As to your OT, I'd rather bitch-slap whoever decided that Kindle eBooks should not open at the cover.

But as the the prologue, why would anyone want it in front of the ToC? It belongs in front of the first chapter. At least in ePub, you can do away with the internal ToC and still have a ToC. A good example of this is Star Trek eBooks. S&S have stopped putting in an internal ToC in the ePub.

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by Hitch

The change, in modern bookmaking is, of course, the TOC. For dog's years, most fiction books didn't have Tables of Content, certainly not in genre fiction. But now, they do, and print is doing the same thing, to conform to the ebooks.

If the chapters are just "Chapter 1", etc, there's little point in a print TOC. But if they have descriptive titles, or the book has "parts", and especially if it has front and/or end matter (author's note, map, glossary (eg foreign words), dramatis personae, etc); then it's common.
E.g. https://archive.org/details/thecompleteworks01dickuoft (Tale of Two Cities, edition c. 1900).

Originally Posted by Hitch

Normally, the prologue would appear before the bastard title (half-title) page, if one exists. And after any TOC. Now, you have to be SURE it's after the TOC, so as not to run afoul of the PW (Publishing Workflow). I have any number of clients that don't want it there; they want it BEFORE the TOC (no matter what I say about historical placement or anything else), and that is a major damned headache.

They may be calling it a "prologue", but to me, the prologue is part of the story. If it's before the TOC, it's something ABOUT the book: a preface, etc., often not written by the author, and maybe only in that edition of the book.

Is this "PW" a documented Amazon thing? Where is it?

I've seen many ebooks where the TOC is at the end of the book, also with the copyright and other minutiae. Is that then deprecated?

Originally Posted by Hitch

OT, kinda: Anyone else here want to bitch-slap auto-corrects, etc., that PERSIST on insisting that "prologue" is PROLOG?????? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
Hitch

I just thought that was a common American spelling (and of course, the logic programming language I learned many years ago). My spelling prefs are set to UK, so I see the red squiggle under "prolog".
Merriam-Webster does have it, but prefers "prologue".

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

If the chapters are just "Chapter 1", etc, there's little point in a print TOC. But if they have descriptive titles, or the book has "parts", and especially if it has front and/or end matter (author's note, map, glossary (eg foreign words), dramatis personae, etc); then it's common.
E.g. https://archive.org/details/thecompleteworks01dickuoft (Tale of Two Cities, edition c. 1900).

Yes, I concur. I'm rather partial to creative, clever tables of content, but of course, there are a kajillion books out now that are the usual Ch. 1, Ch. 2, etc.

They may be calling it a "prologue", but to me, the prologue is part of the story. If it's before the TOC, it's something ABOUT the book: a preface, etc., often not written by the author, and maybe only in that edition of the book.

Well, I meant prologue, not other frontmatter.

Is this "PW" a documented Amazon thing? Where is it?

It's not documented, like in the Publishing Guidelines, but it's a very real thing. I first encountered the term and came to know about it in 2012, when Amazon changed the SRL (Start Reading Location) policy and started changing it, based upon their determinations that too many Word-, PDF- and Other-file uploaders couldn't get the SRLs set correctly. They decided that they'd set it, so that all the books would conform.

The PW is the Publishing Workflow. It's what they call it; it's what happens between the time that the author-publisher clicks "save and publish" and when the book shows up as available for purchase.

I've seen many ebooks where the TOC is at the end of the book, also with the copyright and other minutiae. Is that then deprecated?

Not only deprecated but expressly against the PG. Amazon has specifically stated that the TOC should not be placed at the rear of the book. They state that so doing bollixes up the calculations of "time remaining in the chapter," etc. in that book. That's under Sections 5 and 5.1, in the 2017-2 PG. That prohibition, against putting the TOC at the back of the book, however, has been in place for years.

The only reason that it started, really, is because of people using Calibre, which routinely put the TOC at the back of a book. Then some folks started using it, due to wanting to maximize the LITB (Look Inside the Book). Nonetheless, if someone puts the TOC at the rear, they will most likely run afoul of the KQN (Kindle Quality Notice) program, nowadays.

I just thought that was a common American spelling (and of course, the logic programming language I learned many years ago). My spelling prefs are set to UK, so I see the red squiggle under "prolog".
Merriam-Webster does have it, but prefers "prologue".

I assume, to be frank, that it's just the usual laziness of people that result in things like "judgement" being spelt "judgment," "acknowledgement" being "acknowledgment," and so on. {shrug}. Language evolves; some people go with it.


Hitch