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View Poll Results: Do you like kids (under 5 years old)?
I love 'em 38 35.85%
They ok 33 31.13%
I love them most when they're sleeping 18 16.98%
They're too noisy, demanding and/or self-centered 36 33.96%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-25-2009, 02:38 AM   #166
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We might be able to afford to give everyone some kind of coverage... just look at what we spend in ER "routine care" families going to the ER 5 and 6 times a year because MD's don't want to accept MA as payment (they didn't seem to mind taking government money for those loans that will be extended for years until they're making the big bucks...hmmm)
The overwhelming majority of western nations have government-funded healthcare systems that the individual does not have to pay for personally (other than through their taxes, of course), so clearly it can be done if there is the will to do it. The USA is very, very much the exception in this regard. In most western nations, providing a good healthcare system is regarded as just as much a fundamental "duty" of government as, say, providing a good educational system is.
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:03 AM   #167
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The overwhelming majority of western nations have government-funded healthcare systems that the individual does not have to pay for personally (other than through their taxes, of course), so clearly it can be done if there is the will to do it. The USA is very, very much the exception in this regard. In most western nations, providing a good healthcare system is regarded as just as much a fundamental "duty" of government as, say, providing a good educational system is.
providing one slightly overlooks the dentistry and optical professions that mostly rely on self-funding for treatment - excepting emergency and those on benefits....though eye sight tests are free in Scotland. Prescription charges still feature as a tax upon those who are ill (except in Wales and decreasing annually in Scotland (not too sure about N. Ireland)).
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:18 AM   #168
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providing one slightly overlooks the dentistry and optical professions that mostly rely on self-funding for treatment - excepting emergency and those on benefits....though eye sight tests are free in Scotland. Prescription charges still feature as a tax upon those who are ill (except in Wales and decreasing annually in Scotland (not too sure about N. Ireland)).
And residential care - the elderly often have to sell their homes to pay for the care they need.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:52 PM   #169
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providing one slightly overlooks the dentistry and optical professions that mostly rely on self-funding for treatment - excepting emergency and those on benefits....though eye sight tests are free in Scotland. Prescription charges still feature as a tax upon those who are ill (except in Wales and decreasing annually in Scotland (not too sure about N. Ireland)).
But the overwhelming majority of prescriptions in England (over 90%, I believe) are prescribed free of charge.

Of course it's not perfect, but it's damn sight better (IMHO of course) than knowing that access to medical treatment depends on your ability to pay for it. Personally it's something that I'm more than happy to pay taxes for.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:53 PM   #170
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And residential care - the elderly often have to sell their homes to pay for the care they need.
Quibbles, Sparrow, quibbles. Would you like to see a US-style healthcare system in this country? I'm afraid that I wouldn't.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:57 PM   #171
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Quibbles, Sparrow, quibbles. Would you like to see a US-style healthcare system in this country? I'm afraid that I wouldn't.
Quibbles!?!

Are the NHS and the US system the only options available?
I thought other European countries had health provision that trumped both.
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Old 06-26-2009, 02:32 AM   #172
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Quibbles!?!

Are the NHS and the US system the only options available?
I thought other European countries had health provision that trumped both.
Every European country does things in a somewhat different way, and perhaps some of those other systems are fairer. more efficient, or whatever. Unfortunately I don't know enough about them to be able to form an opinion, I'm afraid. The important question for me, at least, is not the details of how individual healthcare systems operate, but rather, "do you think that the fundamental principle of government-provided healthcare is right or wrong?" and for me the answer is "it's right". I'm sure that every system has its problems, because there will always be enough money available to spend on it as one would like in an ideal world. Personally, as a person in a decent job, I have no objection to paying £7.50 (or whatever it is at the moment) for a prescription.
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Old 06-26-2009, 02:44 AM   #173
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Every European country does things in a somewhat different way, and perhaps some of those other systems are fairer. more efficient, or whatever. Unfortunately I don't know enough about them to be able to form an opinion, I'm afraid. The important question for me, at least, is not the details of how individual healthcare systems operate, but rather, "do you think that the fundamental principle of government-provided healthcare is right or wrong?" and for me the answer is "it's right".
For what it is worth I've worked in health care in Canada (some years ago now) and in Australia. They both work far better than the third world system in the US.

I thought the system in Canada was better than that in Australia, which (to oversimplify) is about midway between Canada's system and the US system.

A conservative Canadian Prime Minister regarded public health care as a 'sacred duty' of governments.

Regards, Alex
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Old 06-26-2009, 02:51 AM   #174
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The NHS has very much of a "sacred" status in the UK, Alex. It is supported by every political party, and it would be political suicide for any politician to even suggest that it be abolished.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:02 AM   #175
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I will whole heartedly agree that the health care system here in the US is a mess (although I definitely would not describe it as third world), but I have serious reservations about changing over to a government controlled healthcare system. I've worked in government agencies and know how convoluted the beaucracy is, so I wouldn't want the same system over seeing my health care. I had serious issues during my pregnancies and had the very best of care thanks to the health insurances I had through both my husband's and my jobs. I was even encouraged to go to a highly specialized clinic in another state to receive additional support. I doubt that would have happened in a state run program. I just don't have any confidence in our beaucratic and red-tape filled government to set up something that will continue to give me the healthcare I am currently receiving. I do want everyone to have healthcare, I just don't want my family to have less than what we have now. That may sound selfish, but it is what it is.

From what I understand, if you want highly specialized care in the UK, you have to pay for it. Is this not true?
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:05 AM   #176
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The NHS has very much of a "sacred" status in the UK, Alex.
It is generally popular - but "sacred" may be a bit of an overstatement.
It does have its critics, and I think there is a general view that the NHS needs reforming in some areas.


Anyway - the poll is nip and tuck.

Baby goats? What's not to like??
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:14 AM   #177
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From what I understand, if you want highly specialized care in the UK, you have to pay for it. Is this not true?
No, absolutely not. You certainly can opt to go "private" if you wish, and that way you'll see a specialist more quickly and, if you do go into a private hospital, get a nicer room than you would in an NHS hospital, but as far as the actual "standard" of care goes, then (generally speaking, at least) there will be no difference.

Things which people tend to have done privately are "quality of life" type things which are not "life-threatening", so you might have to wait 6 months to get them done on the NHS. The might include things like cateract or hip replacement operations, for example. (Or "cosmetic surgery" which the NHS doesn't do.) The "serious stuff" you will get immediate and (normally) excellent NHS treatment for, as I have personal experience of when my Mum was diagnosed with bowel cancer. She could not have received better treatment, and made a full recovery.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:34 AM   #178
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It may be worth mentioning NICE (National Institute for Clinical Health and Excellence) - they decide what treatments the NHS can offer.

I'm not sure if insurance systems like the ones in the US would offer a broader range of treatments; but NICE sometimes make controversial decisions that the NHS won't offer some treatments, because the benefits don't outweigh the costs.
http://www.pharmatimes.com/UKNews/article.aspx?id=16113

This may become more of an issue as the recession bites.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:51 AM   #179
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I have always thought that health care is one of those compromises we make... more salary and possibly no or pretty bad coverage or a big chunk less of salary and benefits that keep you working there. For a long time, this worked. I had friends that made a Lot more than I did, but, to me at least, they paid through the nose for stuff that was considered basic coverage where I work. It worked out in the end, again, to me.

I object to the way Medicaid is currently used in this country, where only the very very poor, children of illegals (which are citizens based on our outmoded laws) or the rich (or ones with laywers that don't mind bending laws) qualify. Should you have to sell your house or use your savings when you get old to pay for your eldercare.... I don't know, but I Don't think I should have to pay for it. We have people with laywers that set up trusts for the family (adults, not kids) where hundreds of thousands of dollars (or MORE) are diverted to the family, and the parent goes to a nursing home free of charge.... well, free of charge to Their family... the rest of us get to pay the $5k+ a month it generally runs.

Some of my thoughts on government provided healthcare have changed... partially as a way citizens in this country are treated and partially because Medicaid, in it's current setup, cannot continue to be allowed to run unchanged.

I think that the step we're trying to take is a step in the right direction except for one thing... as stated previously, I work in government, my benefits, namely my healthcare is one of the few reasons I've stayed as long as I did. If my employer will be given the ability to dissolve our healthcare and make us go national health, I'd be angry...and, the way it sounds, while the government won't "make" any employer disolve their healthcare package, they sure as hell won't stop them from doing so.

Based on my time here, my ability to read, and having watched or heard about politics from an early age, I have absolutely NO faith that any elected official in this country will have anyone other than their own benefit in mind when they make this thing up.

Plus, how would it be set up? There are already long waits for most physicians even when you Have coverage.... will it go to the UK thing, where you can wait for months? (if this is wrong, sorry, but it is the view the rest of us gets when we hear about it). NZ has a type of national health, but it seems to be working even less than the other nationalized systems... Canada I don't know enough about, nor the Aussie system, but maybe we'd be better off following in one of the better plans footsteps rather than trying to come up with our own plan... which of course will have to take care of certain companies and "friends".... pretty much like every government decision ever made.

Last edited by Ceili; 06-26-2009 at 09:55 AM. Reason: *sighs*
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:55 PM   #180
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It may be worth mentioning NICE (National Institute for Clinical Health and Excellence) - they decide what treatments the NHS can offer.

I'm not sure if insurance systems like the ones in the US would offer a broader range of treatments; but NICE sometimes make controversial decisions that the NHS won't offer some treatments, because the benefits don't outweigh the costs.
http://www.pharmatimes.com/UKNews/article.aspx?id=16113

This may become more of an issue as the recession bites.
Any healthcare system has to do a "cost/benefit analysis" of treatments. If spending $10,000 a day would keep someone alive, but they would die anyway after a month, I suspect that not many insurance schemes would consider that an effective use of their clients' money. Treatments that merely "extend" life rather than provide a "cure" for a condition are especially hard to justify financially.
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