Recommend an ePub3 using Bootstrap?

[SigilBear]

This is probably a dumb question, but can anyone point me towards an ePub3 using Bootstrap?

If you type "Bootstrap" into Amazon's search box, you get books with Bootstrap in the title. I'd like to find an ePub that actually uses Bootstrap. I'd simply like to see what you can do with Bootstrap in an ePub, plus it would be nice to have a book that I can use as a model if I decided to go for it.

I asked a question about Bootstrap about a year ago, and it looks like the situation hasn't changed much - it's cutting edge technology that isn't supported by most ePub readers. But I'd like to take a closer look and see what the possibilities are.

If I understand correctly, there's a "fallback" feature that minimizes the possibility of an advanced ePub crashing on devices that don't support it. Another possibility is to create two versions of the same book - one for generic ePub readers and a more advanced version for ePub3 readers.

The learning curve will probably be steep for me to tackle it, but, again, I'd like to explore some possibilities.

Thanks.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

This is probably a dumb question, but can anyone point me towards an ePub3 using Bootstrap?

I wouldn't go that far, but...

If you type "Bootstrap" into Amazon's search box, you get books with Bootstrap in the title. I'd like to find an ePub that actually uses Bootstrap. I'd simply like to see what you can do with Bootstrap in an ePub, plus it would be nice to have a book that I can use as a model if I decided to go for it.

I, personally, would be ecstatic to be able to use BS in the eBooks, (as I had to learn it for my own website) but...ixnay. Doesn't work. Not supported, as far as I know.

I asked a question about Bootstrap about a year ago, and it looks like the situation hasn't changed much - it's cutting edge technology that isn't supported by most ePub readers. But I'd like to take a closer look and see what the possibilities are.

"....supported by" ANY "eReaders." Slight correction. I mean, sure, some desktop, browser-based readers MIGHT support it, but devices? As far as I know, none. Zip, zein, zero, zilch.

If I understand correctly, there's a "fallback" feature that minimizes the possibility of an advanced ePub crashing on devices that don't support it. Another possibility is to create two versions of the same book - one for generic ePub readers and a more advanced version for ePub3 readers.

A fallback feature, of Bootstrap? Where did you see that? Or are you discussing media queries?

The learning curve will probably be steep for me to tackle it, but, again, I'd like to explore some possibilities.

Thanks.

I'm sure we all would love it if eBooks supported Bootstrap, it would greatly improve the table situation. But unless I've really missed a gigantic step, this is not supported.

Hitch

[SigilBear]

Wow, that's amazing. I just thought that an army of geeks would be all over this and make it a regular feature. Guess we'll have to wait a few more years.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

Wow, that's amazing. I just thought that an army of geeks would be all over this and make it a regular feature. Guess we'll have to wait a few more years.

Well....consider what sort of processing power BS requires. To constantly calculate, based on the screensize, the column sizes--and then throw in what happens after that, based on font and font sizes? Oy. I think you're asking an awful lot from a wee device, brother. Hell, how many websites are out there that aren't sitting on a web platform that supports bootstrap????

Unless/until ePUB moves along to CSS3, and devices have enough power, I just don't see this. BS also needs javascript and jquery.

They're going to have to make eReaders phabets/tablets, not eReaders, for that (bootstrap) to have the power it needs, and that, right now, means much heavier devices to read with. I have a plethora of devices, as I have to test on them all--and the lightweight Voyage, an eInk, is still my favorite. Easy on my wrists, hands and eyes. One of the reasons I dislike reading on my iPad is that it's sooooooo heavy, comparatively speaking. More power--but more weight, too.

Hitch

[SigilBear]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Unless/until ePUB moves along to CSS3, and devices have enough power, I just don't see this. BS also needs javascript and jquery.

Actually, ePubs have already implemented CSS3 -- https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...cId=1000729511

I think I read about another non-Amazon reader that is CSS3 enabled.

The problem is that very few people are currently using these devices.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

Actually, ePubs have already implemented CSS3 -- https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...cId=1000729511

I think I read about another non-Amazon reader that is CSS3 enabled.

The problem is that very few people are currently using these devices.

That's for Textbook format--Print Replica. The antithesis of reflowable eBooks. It has pretty much nothing to do with ePUB specifications. you might want to read up on the ePUB3.0 specs, for CSS, here: http://www.idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epu...ec-css-profile

As you see, they're still talking about CSS 2.1. The only CSS3 specifications being addressed are from the speech modules, some font specs (not sure why, when I read what they're using) and a handful--a handful--of layout elements, like line-break, line-last, etc.

They are saying, in the spec, that they're supporting multi-column but I haven't seen ANYTHING support CSSMulti-Column. Nothing. I don't even think that Readium or Azardi does, but they might.

Which is kinda useless. They're nice readers--but they're not sales platforms, are they?

So, is it that you have a specific need for actual bootstrapped columns, rather than using tables, or are you just bored and looking for some trouble to keep you busy? :-)

Hitch

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

Actually, ePubs have already implemented CSS3 -- https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...cId=1000729511

I think I read about another non-Amazon reader that is CSS3 enabled.

The problem is that very few people are currently using these devices.

The renderer used by the Kobo eInk ereaders for epub3 will handle javascript. Kobo used to use some js in their kepubs but later dropped embedding js -- it was damn near impossible to have their eInk devices, Windows/Mac desktop apps, Android app and ios app not have issues trying to make pages with js display the same pages without customizing the js for each platform.

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

Actually, ePubs have already implemented CSS3 -- https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...cId=1000729511

I think I read about another non-Amazon reader that is CSS3 enabled.

Kindle apps and readers actually support only a very limited subset of CSS3 and KDP authors are restricted to the selectors listed in appendix C of the Kindle Publishing Guidelines. (For some examples, see this post.)

BTW, the author of the Blitz framework uses Less to generate Kindle and EPUB stylessheets.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Kindle apps and readers actually support only a very limited subset of CSS3 and KDP authors are restricted to the selectors listed in appendix C of the Kindle Publishing Guidelines. (For some examples, see this post.)

BTW, the author of the Blitz framework uses Less to generate Kindle and EPUB stylessheets.

Right--none of which deals with bootstrap or (CSS3) columns, if memory serves. (Hell, KF8 still states it doesn't support max-height or width!). But you can create colored borders, bygod.


Anyway...I just don't see bootstrap coming to eReaders anytime soon. I wish it would, for tabular content, but...when you think about it, if you were trying to do something like newspaper columns, oy! That could end up rendering very, very badly, with large font sizes and small screens...

If you think about the purpose of Bootstrap--it was originally designed for Twitter, for whatever reason, and then came to encompass websites. It was meant to allow websites to work in such a way that a very wide website, with tons of content, that would be unreadable on a smartphone, could function effectively in "columns," so that it would be readable.

eBooks don't really have that problem. I mean, first...they're books. They're not multi-column content spread across a website. Most book content isn't columnar--it's a single, vertical stack column.

I can see that Bootstrap would be nice for, say, a coffee-table book that has columnar material. But for now, you have to do fixed-layout and zoom. That's the reality. For most books, though, there is zero need; Bootstrap-type coding wouldn't be needed. If I had to guess, I'd guess we're talking, what, 1-2% of all books, at the absolute most, that might be able to make use of something like Bootstrap?

Doits, DNSB, what do you think? Am I underestimating how many books could use Bootstrap? I guess that there are heavy-content textbooks that could use it, possibly, but most of those are a vertical stack, as well.

Hitch

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Doits, DNSB, what do you think? Am I underestimating how many books could use Bootstrap? I guess that there are heavy-content textbooks that could use it, possibly, but most of those are a vertical stack, as well.

Hitch

The very small percentage of ebooks I've seen that might have used Bootstrap used epub3 fixed layout or azw4 embedded pdf. I don't think I've ever seen an ebook using Bootstrap and exactly one that used Bulma. The one using Bulma was created by a local developer and looked decent on screen as an html file but was a bit of a disaster when converted to epub or azw3 and viewed on an ereader.

OTOH, if you ever try to get one of your authors to use Bootstrap, please let us know how it works out. I'm convinced a fairly large percentage of the authors I've had contact with regret the passing of the quill pen* as THE method of writing. OTOH, one named her new kitten after Isaac Newton's possibly apocryphal dog after the young cat decided her laptop keyboard looked like a litter box. Fortunately, the hard drive data was mostly recoverable.

* Okay, maybe an electric typewriter.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The very small percentage of ebooks I've seen that might have used Bootstrap used epub3 fixed layout or azw4 embedded pdf. I don't think I've ever seen an ebook using Bootstrap and exactly one that used Bulma. The one using Bulma was created by a local developer and looked decent on screen as an html file but was a bit of a disaster when converted to epub or azw3 and viewed on an ereader.

OTOH, if you ever try to get one of your authors to use Bootstrap, please let us know how it works out. I'm convinced a fairly large percentage of the authors I've had contact with regret the passing of the quill pen* as THE method of writing. OTOH, one named her new kitten after Isaac Newton's possibly apocryphal dog after the young cat decided her laptop keyboard looked like a litter box. Fortunately, the hard drive data was mostly recoverable.

* Okay, maybe an electric typewriter.

Well, if and when Bootstrap is ever available to us, I'm absolutely, positively sure I'll find a book that needs it. The books that come to my door are, to say the least, boggling. :-)

If I do, you, my fellow booknerds, will be the first to know about it!

Hitch

[SigilBear]

Originally Posted by Hitch

So, is it that you have a specific need for actual bootstrapped columns, rather than using tables, or are you just bored and looking for some trouble to keep you busy? :-)

Hitch

My interest in Bootstrap revolves around its use in displaying images as fonts. Most of my books are educational, and, as you know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

For example, if you go http://politix.geostacks.com/topics/political-system and scroll down to "What is a Political System," note the gear icons on either side of the first paragraph. (The second icon is animated.)

They're both fonts, not images.

Similarly, if you look at the sidebars @ http://politix.geostacks.com/topics/government you'll see a number of tiny images (including an exclamation point in a triangle) that are fonts.

I would find these mini-images tremendously useful in some of my projects.

Then again, they aren't wholly dependent on Bootstrap. Does anyone know if there's a way to display such icons in epubs that doesn't require Bootstrap?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

My interest in Bootstrap revolves around its use in displaying images as fonts. Most of my books are educational, and, as you know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

For example, if you go http://politix.geostacks.com/topics/political-system and scroll down to "What is a Political System," note the gear icons on either side of the first paragraph. (The second icon is animated.)

They're both fonts, not images.

Similarly, if you look at the sidebars @ http://politix.geostacks.com/topics/government you'll see a number of tiny images (including an exclamation point in a triangle) that are fonts.

I would find these mini-images tremendously useful in some of my projects.

Then again, they aren't wholly dependent on Bootstrap. Does anyone know if there's a way to display such icons in epubs that doesn't require Bootstrap?

Well, the first one is easy--you can do that in a table, but I would strongly recommend that you use the gears (or whatever) as images, not fonts. That's utterly unrelated to Bootstrap--you need to remember that many devices allow the end user to completely, 100%, override the font choices you make. In that event, people won't see gears or other cutesy icons, they'll see empty boxes with Xes in them, or they'll see characters that make no sense, in some other font. Simply convert the gears or whatever to small images and put them in a 3 column table, with the content in the middle cell and the gears on either side. Done and dusted.

Even if Bootstrap does make its way into the ePUB spec, it's exceedingly unlikely that the ability to override fonts is going to go away, so, as I said, the issue you're trying to deal with is unrelated to Bootstrap. Sure, the developers of Bootstrap developed an entire group of icons and font-icons, but again...that's sort of night-and-day what we're discussing here.

I don't understand or see what you're talking about in the 2nd example. I don't see the "tiny images including exclamation marks," I see a lot of missing characters? Where, exactly, is it that I'm supposed to see that? Can you give me a line of text, where that's happening?

Hitch

[SigilBear]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I don't understand or see what you're talking about in the 2nd example. I don't see the "tiny images including exclamation marks," I see a lot of missing characters? Where, exactly, is it that I'm supposed to see that? Can you give me a line of text, where that's happening?

Hitch

Search for this sentence: "Republican government should not be confused with the Republican Party." It should be inside a light red box with a bold red dashed border and preceded by an exclamation point inside a triangle.

In the meantime, your comment about font overrides solves my problem. It looks like I can't do what I want to do without using images.

Thanks.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

Search for this sentence: "Republican government should not be confused with the Republican Party." It should be inside a light red box with a bold red dashed border and preceded by an exclamation point inside a triangle.

Eh. Just do it with a regular text box, a table inside it, and using the image as an image, not a font.

In the meantime, your comment about font overrides solves my problem. It looks like I can't do what I want to do without using images.

Thanks.

Yes. And really, if you think about it, making them as images makes them more usable for some folks who are reading the book on smaller screens and devices. Forcing them to use a specific font, just to see a few icons--that's kind of pushing a chain up a hill. Y'know?

Hitch