Would you buy the print or the ebook for the same price?

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

If the ebook isn't at least half the price of the real book I would buy the real one, probably second hand. That way if I don't like it I can resell it.

Both electronic and print versions are real books.

Personally, I won't pay hardcover prices for an ebook, I will pay paperback prices for an ebook. I buy both ebooks and paperbacks for the content, and ebooks are significantly easier to read. There's no issue with the spine, the "page" is always flat and I can adjust the font to match the conditions.

I'm willing to pay $8 for a novel's worth of content however it comes to me. Any more and I really have to want to read it now.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I've ever seen anybody do that. Is it really that common?

Yes it is. Not like one one out of 10 people, but several a day/week in a busy restaurant. Some even ask if you will heat their lunch for them.

Helen

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Yes it is. Not like one one out of 10 people, but several a day/week in a busy restaurant. Some even ask if you will heat their lunch for them.

Helen

Wow. Well, colour me surprised

[samhy]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I've ever seen anybody do that. Is it really that common?

Not common here neither. But, you know, it's also seen as bad behaviour to have popcorn during a movie (lack of respect for people around you). Having lived abroad, I believe that culture differences are truly fascinating

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Nah... bringing food or drinks into a pub or restaurant is something I wouldn't think about. If you do that, then there is no reason anymore to go to said establishment.

Bringing my own M&M's and coke to a movie theather... well... if they'd ask *normal* prices for such things, comparable to what you'd pay in a pub or restaurant, and not twice or sometimes three times as high, then I probably wouldn't bring stuff there either.



In my case, I pay for stuff like ebooks, movies and games because it doesn't feel right to me to NOT pay for them. If I can get something the legal way, I will. But I don't accept any restrictions, so I'll rip out any DRM. If I can't, I won't pay.

Personally, I have nothing against stripping DRM for ones own use. I don't actually care much about who does it for other uses, such as allowing your mother to read it or even a pathetic a need gain approval by passing it around to strangers. The last one is wrong, but I have done wrong things in my time and I am sure I will do more..

I once brought my own popcorn into a theatre (live play) where the signs said bring your own food and felt like a dork eating it, and it was cold dammit. But I haven't had a tasty purchase of popcorn at a movie in probably 30 years. I don't eat at movie theatres because their popcorn sucks and I'd rather enjoy my M&M's in bed while reading a good book. I don't eat while watching TV either, but if I wanted to eat in a theatre I might bring my own chips. I wouldn't expect them to furnish napkins or plates for my sandwich which indeed some people do in restaurants.

My big question as always, is why make DRM a point in the price you pay while you are able to strip it. I agree that it would be nice to be able to sell or trade an ebook, but until this can be done in a way fair to the author/publisher/vendor on the same basis as paper books, (1 copy = 1 trade/sale) how can this be taken as a God given right?

In my mind no unbreakable DRM means no legal transfer of ebooks. I would like to think everyone is totally and completely honest and nice, but I can't actually beleive that about myself. I shop in stores with video cams and scanners looking for shoplifters, have purchased things kept locked behind glass. Not really different IMO then DRM. Theft deterrents that don't always work, but that everyone has to put up with, honest or not.

Helen

[ApK]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I shop in stores with video cams and scanners looking for shoplifters, have purchased things kept locked behind glass. Not really different IMO then DRM. Theft deterrents that don't always work, but that everyone has to put up with, honest or not.

The difference (as I see it, anyway) is that DRM encumbers our fair use of the intellectual property we have licensed.
Without any real good to society to compensate (since it doesn't stop real criminal infringement) it harms society by limiting our ability to use the IP in a way we legitimately believe we can and should be able to, such as by potentially locking us into one manufacture's hardware or by locking us out of our content entirely in the event of a corporate closure.
The locked display cases do deter shoplifting, at least a bit, and do no harm to society, so their minor annoyance-factor is acceptable.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by ApK

The difference (as I see it, anyway) is that DRM encumbers our fair use of the intellectual property we have licensed.
Without any real good to society to compensate (since it doesn't stop real criminal infringement) it harms society by limiting our ability to use the IP in a way we legitimately believe we can and should be able to, such as by potentially locking us into one manufacture's hardware or by locking us out of our content entirely in the event of a corporate closure.
The locked display cases do deter shoplifting, at least a bit, and do no harm to society, so their minor annoyance-factor is acceptable.

Perhaps bit out of context with the whole post as I was addressing the concept that if one can disable DRM, one is locked out of nothing. And in most areas of life's purchases, things we purvhase, break, become obsolete, stolen, or otherwise unusable. What happens if my eyesight fails, my paper boodk become unusable to me. Of course I could still sell them, which would make me feel so much better I am sure.

The security features in stores are no different in their intent than DRM. They are to try to deter theft. I am pretty sure that the purpose of DRM is not a nefarious plan to deprive you of your content in the near or far distant future. Or no more so than printing books on paper, which is susceptable to loss, fire, mold, or falling in a mud puddle.

We buy something, we own it until it is removed from our possession, which happens all the time.

We license something we have the use of it, which may devalue it insome peoples eyes, but we still can, under present circumstances, look forward to being able to read an ebook in the forseeable future.

I admit that there may be ebooks in existence that will only work on one device with no reading apps etc. and will never ever be readble on any other, but I am sadly unaware of them. Perhaps you have been unfortunate enough to own one and are understandably outraged.

And maybe all the ebooks will be reclaimed from even the devices they still wrok on. Perhaps many people would be seriously impoverished or deprived if this happened. But speaking strictly for myself, if I still owned everthing I have bought in my life, I would need at least two warehouses to keep it in, and I would never be able to find anything. Even the paper books would be costing me a few hundred a month to store.

Helen

[ApK]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

The security features in stores are no different in their intent than DRM. They are to try to deter theft.

The road to hell with their intentions! :-)

My point was only that the intended positive effect fails with DRM and it has other negative effects besides. That constitutes a Bad Thing.
The store features reasonably achieve their desired effect and have virtually no negative side effects, so they are Not Bad.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by ApK

The road to hell with their intentions! :-)

My point was only that the intended positive effect fails with DRM and it has other negative effects besides. That constitutes a Bad Thing.
The store features reasonably achieve their desired effect and have virtually no negative side effects, so they are Not Bad.

Haha. Tell that to the shoplifters or the people switching the small eggs for large in the cartons.

Seriously though, many many people resent them because it make them feel they are being spied on or accused personally of dishonesty.

PS. What actual concrete harm has DRM done so far to you personally. I'm listening and would be interested to hear
.

Helen

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

My big question as always, is why make DRM a point in the price you pay while you are able to strip it.

Price considerations don't include DRM.

If I know beforehand that I can reliably strip it, then I'll buy the media if I want them (books, games...), but if I already know the DRM can't be stripped, then I won't buy, no matter what. I don't even pirate it, because hacks/cracks are more often backdoors or trojans than not.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to sell or trade an ebook, but until this can be done in a way fair to the author/publisher/vendor on the same basis as paper books, (1 copy = 1 trade/sale) how can this be taken as a God given right?

I don't care about transfering, selling, trading, or anything.

I care about being able to read the stuff on the reader of my choice. When I bought the Kindle, I considered it the best reader, but I consider EPUB the best format. (Because the tools to create or modify it are better than the ones for any other format.) Stripping the DRM out of bought EPUBs allows me to convert them and thus read them on the Kindle, something I wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

This was the reason why I got into buying ebooks instead of reading only classics on the e-reader. Hadn't this been possible, I would have bought nothing. Ever.

Theft deterrents that don't always work, but that everyone has to put up with, honest or not.

I fully understand, but your comparison is flawed. Items you buy (such as clothing) may have anti-theft measures, but those are removed after you buy the item. With ebooks, and other media, that is not the case. The DRM/lock stays on. You wouldn't want to wear a dress, with a big card latched to it, stating your name, to make sure no one else would be able to wear it, would you?

Look at GOG.com. They understand.

They sell old (and some not so old) games between $2 and $19 or so, and they have sales often. Also, they don't have DRM. You download the game, and you can install it on 10 computers if you want to. They only *ask* you to please not give the game to other people, and only install it onto your own machines.

It seems to work, because they're still in business. Some time ago, they had a counter up; when they reached the X-millionth game, the buyer of that game would receive their *entire* game catalog for free. I've been watching that counter, and Gog.com sold between 2-5 games PER SECOND.

They won't do that always, but if that counter is any indication, they're making money hand over fist.

Of course. There will be people who make deals. "You buy those 5 games, I buy these, and then we'll swap them." It happens. Gog.com knows. Still, they don't go whining that "they could have sold 20 games": they celebrate that they sold 10. Had they used DRM that needed to be cracked, the buyers would probably have downloaded pre-cracked illegal versions, and Gog.com wouldn't have sold anything.

Actually, many people refuse to buy games if they are not on Gog.com.

(And some others like Steam, whose DRM seems to be very light; you seem to be able to install the game wherever you want, as long as you don't launch it on more than one computer at the same time.)

edit: Oh, and to pile some more praise on gog.com: even if you have a game already, it can be attractive to buy it with them. They combine the game with all expansions (if it had any), patches, and any needed fixes to run it on modern operating systems. For DOS-games, they build DOSBox right into it. And to make everything complete, they give you three manual, wallpapers, concept art, and the soundtrack in 320Kbps MP3. Some games are worth the price for the soundtrack alone.

As I said, Gog.com understands. If they have a game, it's not worth it to pirate it.

DRM serves no purpose, except for making life difficult for paying users. Non-paying users don't have any of the problems the paying ones have to contend with, and for many people, that lowers the value of media such as ebooks; and for some people, like me, the value immediately becomes $0, if DRM cannot be removed.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

PS. What actual concrete harm has DRM done so far to you personally. I'm listening and would be interested to hear

Infringement of my rights is harm enough.
But in the sense you probably mean, none of course. If you search these forums you'll see that I've made the argument that this is practical non-issue.
My position is based on concern for The Future and for what's Right.

ApK

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by ApK

Infringement of my rights is harm enough.
But in the sense you probably mean, none of course. If you search these forums you'll see that I've made the argument that this is practical non-issue.
My position is based on concern for The Future and for what's Right.

ApK

Thanks for the reply. I personally don't see much infinging going on as ebooks are differnt than paper books, but I will concede you may have very legitimate concerns as to what may happen in the future and maybe time will prove you right and we will all be reading paper books again, or worse no books at all.

Helen

[BeccaPrice]

Here's an example of when stripping drm makes sense.

My mom's old K3 was dying The True Death. I had an extra K3, so, thanks to Apprentice Alf and Calibre, it was child's play to transfer all her books over to the new k3. It would have been a nightmare to download and re-categorized all her books.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

Here's an example of when stripping drm makes sense.

My mom's old K3 was dying The True Death. I had an extra K3, so, thanks to Apprentice Alf and Calibre, it was child's play to transfer all her books over to the new k3. It would have been a nightmare to download and re-categorized all her books.

As I said, I have nothing against stripping DRM. In fact I specified that if you can I don't think it is worth all the noise.

Helen

Edit: sorry you probably were replying to someone else.

[BeccaPrice]

someone upthread asked what the value of stripping drm was. That was what I was replying to.