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Old 02-28-2012, 04:32 PM   #226
MrsJoseph
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Of course you have the right to your moral opinions, and you have the right to express them.

However, you have to understand that your expression of your moral opinions has repercussions. One of those consequences is that people who believe like you AND want to go a step further will take your words as tacit approval from you to do so. If you do not believe that, take a look at the current state of affairs with regards to our rights.

The statement that we " ... are less comfortable with personal moral freedom than I am. I was explicit in stating that I had no desire to enact any sort of ban--I simply don't want certain things to happen." is insulting to me. I am perfectly fine with you having moral opinions and choices. I'm okay with you voicing those opinions. I'm okay with you following your moral and ethical choices and insisting your children do the same.

Where I stop being okay was your SECOND sentence. "I simply don't want certain things to happen." That implies you want a ban. That implies you want control or force over other people. You don't want people to read those types of fiction. You don't want people to do things. That stops being a moral belief of yours and starts being a societal morality issue.

See what you're saying? You've stopped talking about YOUR choices and YOUR life and YOUR moral compass, and extended it to EVERYONE. In the history of religion and morality and laws and government.. the ONLY WAY this type of thing gets spread is by force. It may sound slippery slopish, but the exact same arguments are made every day by pastors fighting against gay marriage, or interacial marriage, or any number of other things.

If no one is getting hurt, then no one is getting hurt. Having moral viewpoints is fine, I have plenty. Do not imply that I am uncomfortable with your morals. I'm perfectly comfortable with your morals SO LONG AS THEY REMAIN YOURS and do not get spread about society in a manner that LIMITS my freedoms. When you stop talking about what YOU are doing to follow your morals, and start putting it on other people, the next step is a limitation of my choices.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:40 PM   #227
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Where I stop being okay was your SECOND sentence. "I simply don't want certain things to happen." That implies you want a ban. That implies you want control or force over other people. You don't want people to read those types of fiction. You don't want people to do things. That stops being a moral belief of yours and starts being a societal morality issue.
We may have to agree to disagree about this. I don't think that the statement, "I don't want certain things to happen," implies that I want to ban them. "I don't want them to happen and I don't want to ban them" may seem contradictory, but it's not--it's just an ethical, veridical paradox. Many people hold this sort of mindset.

"I don't want people to eat meat, and I don't want to ban meat-eating."
"I don't want people to be fat, and I don't want to ban being fat."
"I don't want my neighbors to have raggedy lawns and I don't want to pass a law requiring people to mow once a week."
etc, etc.

Perhaps we're hanging up on the issue of having personal moral opinions about our own activity and having moral desires regarding the functioning of society. I think both are fair and appropriate. I think it's okay to have moral desires about how society operates. Do you?
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:52 PM   #228
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I think it's okay to have moral desires about how society operates. Do you?
Butting into the discussion-- what people read in the privacy of their own homes does not really apply to "how society operates." If they were posting passages from these books on billboards or reading them aloud on street corners you might have a point.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:05 PM   #229
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Butting into the discussion-- what people read in the privacy of their own homes does not really apply to "how society operates." If they were posting passages from these books on billboards or reading them aloud on street corners you might have a point.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:06 PM   #230
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Butting into the discussion-- what people read in the privacy of their own homes does not really apply to "how society operates." If they were posting passages from these books on billboards or reading them aloud on street corners you might have a point.
I don't agree--I think private behavior does affect how society operates. What I do in the privacy of my home affects how I interact with people outside of my home.

And we're talking here about my earlier stated desire that these books did not exist (again, not a desire to ban or burn them, just a moral preference that they did not exist). Their creation and online distribution is certainly a societal issue as it intrinsically involves more than one person.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:15 PM   #231
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Perhaps we're hanging up on the issue of having personal moral opinions about our own activity and having moral desires regarding the functioning of society. I think both are fair and appropriate. I think it's okay to have moral desires about how society operates. Do you?
No, I don't think it's okay to have moral desires about how society operates. Society is a construct, and different constructs have different moral desires about how to operate. You say society, but what do you mean by that? The current grouping of people you live around? All of humanity?

If I were to have societal desires, I suppose they would run VERY basic and look like this:

* Do not ban anything that is victimless in nature
* If some one is forced to do something against their will, they are a victim and a crime has been committed.
* If some one is hurt by another, they are a victim.
* If some one commits fraud against another, that person is a criminal and their target a victim.
* If something does not affect you in ANY WAY, but you dislike it, it is your perogative to abstain from doing it. You are NOT a victim and neither is this magical construct called "society."

But I would hardly argue those are societal desires. More like MY moral codes. And I certainly wouldn't force someone else to accept them, as most people tend to force "societal desires" given the power. That'd be quite hypocritical of me!
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:32 PM   #232
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I don't agree--I think private behavior does affect how society operates. What I do in the privacy of my home affects how I interact with people outside of my home.

And we're talking here about my earlier stated desire that these books did not exist (again, not a desire to ban or burn them, just a moral preference that they did not exist). Their creation and online distribution is certainly a societal issue as it intrinsically involves more than one person.
It is not a societal issue at all.

It is fiction. Pure and simple. It is someone's sexual fantasy.

Fiction. As in Not True. As in False. As in "It didn't happen."

People should butt out of other people's private lives unless someone is being hurt.

No man is an island living unto himself. We all have DIFFERENCES - different thoughts, actions, feelings, behaviors.

Once you start trying to assume you know what's best for someone that you are not raising...you've crossed the line.

Do you think that most of the people here defending the right of these books are reading them? Not likely. But I will defend them to the death.

Because I know what happens when people start to try to force their personal set of morals and behavior on others...

...it's the reason for the poor laws that forced women to place their children (HUNDREDS OF THEM) in baby farms to die and/or be forced into prostitution http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/194675503
...it's the reason why blacks were not allowed to eat, sit or marry whites.
...it's the reason why people want to keep homosexuals from marrying.
...the list goes on and on.

Now, I'm not saying that you don't have the right to not like this kind of work. I don't like it either, it's not my thing...

But it does have the right to exist.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:32 PM   #233
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Close, but we have things like the "Twinkie Defense" instead. I mean, no court in the land would dare indict if there were proof that you actually "talked to a Communist" beforehand.
"I was watching TV, then played a video game and read a comic...Then! A Communist handed me a twinkie tricking me into a triple murder/suicide without the suicide part. Totally out of the blue and NOT my fault. Oh, and I read a book from Smashwords that I paid for using PayPal." He said.

Known as the TV/Video/comic/Communist/Twinkie/Smashwords/PayPal defense.

Did I miss anything?
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:41 PM   #234
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Of course you have the right to your moral opinions, and you have the right to express them.

However, you have to understand that your expression of your moral opinions has repercussions. One of those consequences is that people who believe like you AND want to go a step further will take your words as tacit approval from you to do so. If you do not believe that, take a look at the current state of affairs with regards to our rights.
And let's turn this on its head. By your reasoning, should I be able to I say then that your expression of the right of people to read about bestiality, incest, pedophilia, etc. is a tacit approval of such behaviors?

Slippery slopes on both sides.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:49 PM   #235
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And let's turn this on its head. By your reasoning, should I be able to I say then that your expression of the right of people to read about bestiality, incest, pedophilia, etc. is a tacit approval of such behaviors?

Slippery slopes on both sides.
Um.

Yes, it is a tacit approval of people being allowed to read whatever the hell they want to read so long as they are not hurting anyone else through force or fraud.

It's not slippery at all. Fictional events ARE NOT REAL.

Oh, and implying I'm a (or support) pedophile, beastiali..st? , or incestor.. pretty much is dirty pool, and says a lot more about you than me. It also suggests that I'm done with you. Thanks for the implication.

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Old 02-28-2012, 06:08 PM   #236
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Where I stop being okay was your SECOND sentence. "I simply don't want certain things to happen." That implies you want a ban.
Wow, that isn't how I read it at all.
There are plenty of things I'd rather people didn't do. How does that become the same as saying that I want people to be banned from doing them?
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:13 PM   #237
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Never mind censorship: this is a service provider telling their *customers* how to run their business.
Everybody doing business with Paypal is now at risk of ebay telling them what they can or cannot sell. Viagra. Condoms. Yeast infection meds. What nnext? Who they can or cannot hire?

I'm thinking Google payments and (yes) AMAZON Payments are licking their chops.
I hope they are.

And I guess I just gave away some of my reading interests with that remark.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:26 PM   #238
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Yes, it is a tacit approval of people being allowed to read whatever the hell they want to read so long as they are not hurting anyone else through force or fraud.


Oh, hey, look at that: I own a mainstream paranormal fantasy book that has a throw-away line about paranormal, consensual bestial sex.

Feel free to snub me now, all.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:36 PM   #239
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MobileRead has hosted this argument over and over - "SOMEONE wants to control what we can, or can not, read!" CENSORSHIP!!!

We get the same people stating the same arguments - "I don't read that stuff, BUT..."
I read that stuff. This change directly affects my reading and buying habits.

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To fairly judge PayPal's action, I would have to read the book(s) in question.

Since, as far as I know, none of us has done that...
I have read books in, I believe, all four of those categories from Smashwords. (Including the underage erotica that they remove when they find it.)

Among my complaints about the new policy is that the categories are not defined... at what point does shapeshifter sex become "bestiality?" If the animal shape isn't one that exists on earth, is that "never?" (Is sex with a unicorn bestiality? Sex with a demon? A kiss shared with a talking frog that used to be a prince?)

What's "incest?" Does it mean "sex between people not legal to marry in the US?" (Which varies a bit by state; we can assume it would mean California since that's where both PayPal and Smaswords are located.) Or do they have a broader definition of "incest" that has no relation to legal restrictions--do they allow cousin sex? (In CA, first cousins can marry.) Former-stepsibling sex after the parents divorce?

Rape-for-titillation... WTF is that? Whose titillation is being talked about here... one character? Both characters? The reader's? Who decides if titillation has occurred? If this gets enforced, a huge section of the romance industry is going to be censored; there are countless books based on "he forces sex on her, but she loves it so much she comes to love him, and they eventually live happily ever after." (Yes, it's skeevy. But I don't think bookstores or payment processors should be deciding what's too skeevy for people to enjoy reading about. For a lot of women, it's nice to spend some time imagining it *could* happen that way, instead of being stuck with thinking about how rape *does* happen.)

Underage erotica: this one presumably means "explicit sexual activity with at least one character under 18 years old," but as fanfic archives have discovered, it's not always that simple. Books, unlike real life, have situations that the law never has to deal with: characters with 6-year-old bodies and 100-year-old minds (Claudia from Interview With a Vampire; characters with human-adult bodies and children's minds (rescuees from Mirror Dance; characters who age much faster than humans (Kes in Star Trek: Voyager)... is erotica between two aliens who have 20-year-lifespans against PayPal's rules?

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Question for those who are now boycotting PayPal. Are you also boycotting your public library, whose standards of what's acceptable are even narrower?
Libraries aren't middlemen in a business transactions; they're curators of culture, with restrictions based on local community standards. Some libraries carry copies of Fanny Hill... sites that sell with PayPal cannot.

Last edited by Elfwreck; 02-28-2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:41 PM   #240
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Hi, my name is Ana. I am physically incapable of bearing children, and I don't enjoy being around other people's children. I go weeks at a time without even seeing children. Quit justifying censorship on the grounds that your hypothetical children will somehow be hurt by me reading a gorram book.
Heh. I have children. I get just as upset; *I* will decide what's appropriate for them to read; I don't need or want PayPal making that decision for me.

Will the "think of the chilllldrreennnn" censors allow me to ban books with biblical metaphors and references from school libraries? If not, they can stop deciding what's inappropriate for my kids to have access to; I will make those judgment calls myself.
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