The negative reviews have started on Amazon.

[Sporadic]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

meh, the "wear and tear" argument is only valid to a certain point. i've seen used books that probably had never been read. i've also seen used books that looked like they had been through a war. resale of ebooks is problematic because it implies copying the file, and therefore potentially copyright infringement, but i still have to agree that we lose some rights we should legitimately have as purchasers of content (including the "first sale" doctrine).

Yeah, but those used books in perfect condition are rare.

With digital copies, every copy is exactly the same as the new one Amazon is selling. There is literally no difference. Nobody would buy new if "used" copies were avaliable for less. If you were allowed to gift them, it would only be a matter of time before people chip in for one copy and just pass it around (it's already happened with Amazon Prime)

We haven't lost any rights because this is uncharted territory. It's a completely different ballgame with digital goods.

[detacht69]

I'm with the parrot, people shouldn't knock the product because of the media.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Sporadic

Yeah, but those used books in perfect condition are rare.

perfect condition used books are rare, but very good condition used books are actually pretty easy to find, and honestly if it's just a question of a crease on the cover where it was opened, i don't see that it makes much difference.

With digital copies, every copy is exactly the same as the new one Amazon is selling. There is literally no difference. Nobody would buy new if "used" copies were avaliable for less. If you were allowed to gift them, it would only be a matter of time before people chip in for one copy and just pass it around (it's already happened with Amazon Prime)

yes, this is true.

We haven't lost any rights because this is uncharted territory. It's a completely different ballgame with digital goods.

well, putting aside the resale question for a moment, with drm books at least we *do* lose a lot of rights, including the rights to read a book wherever, whenever and however we choose (unless you remove the drm), and the right to share with a friend / family member like you do with paper books (i can't even count how many authors i've discovered because a friend lent me a paper book, and i couldn't count how many of my own paper books i've lent out either). you are right that to some degree it's different with digital goods, and they do definitely complicate the resale issue (i'm not sure i see a way around that), but there are nonetheless some other assimilated rights (lending books to friends) which we lose as well, and which we should not.

[MonaLS]

Originally Posted by Ervserver

Nobody seems to mind the positive reviews by people who don't have a Kindle II yet

I mind both, if you don't have one it's not a product review.

[Ervserver]

One of the comments really made me hoot....

".......Another problem that Amazon has fixed is the subpar case that came with the first Kindle. Amazon has addressed this by not including one for the second unit"

[spec2]

Originally Posted by Sporadic

Yeah, but those used books in perfect condition are rare.

With digital copies, every copy is exactly the same as the new one Amazon is selling. There is literally no difference. Nobody would buy new if "used" copies were avaliable for less. If you were allowed to gift them, it would only be a matter of time before people chip in for one copy and just pass it around (it's already happened with Amazon Prime)

We haven't lost any rights because this is uncharted territory. It's a completely different ballgame with digital goods.

Yes, but mostly no. The "first sale doctrine," is codified in copyright law. When you buy a copy of a copyrighted work you don't have the right to make additional copies of it or to make a derivative work of it but you have always, up until now, had the right to sell it, donate it, loan it to a friend, etc.

Nothing in current copyright law repeals the "first sale doctrine" from digital copies, however, the DMCA does de facto create a barrier to exercising that right when companies insert DRM into the work. It's perfectly legal to sell, give away, donate a digital file you own, be it software, MP3s, or eBooks, provided you remove all such files from any devices you own. What is generally not permitted, however, is to remove the DRM.

As you say, a "used" digital file, is no different than a "new," one. Artists and publishers do need to protect their work. However, the methods used create a terrific burden on the buyer in so many aspects. While there are always early adopters (us) that go along most consumers will not put up with it. Take a look at digital music, once laden with harsh DRM, now forced to soften to an invisible DRM that can be played on almost any player. EBooks are no different.

There is a long tradition of buying books then giving or selling them cheap to friends and family and also of just donating to charities for book sales. While eBooks may be slightly less expensive, they also come with no practical "first sale doctrine" rights. That is ridiculous. It would not be hard for Amazon to set up a system so that you could transfer a book to someone else for a small fee, say $1.00, or to include a free transfer with each book. It wouldn't be a complete restoration of First Sale, but it would be a good start.

Of course the best, most uncomplicated, solution for the book industry and consumers is to sell eBooks with the same invisible DRM now used in music where personal information is embedded in the book but the file will otherwise play in any player. There is a middle ground to protect all interests. Let people pass the book around if that is what they want. The practice been going on for centuries. Why stop now because the books are in bits rather than bound. At any rate, I'm certain eBooks will fail if the DRM isn't lighted up, and that would be a shame.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i still have to agree that we lose some rights we should legitimately have as purchasers of content (including the "first sale" doctrine).

Does France have a "first sale doctrine"? I thought that was a US-specific thing.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Does France have a "first sale doctrine"? I thought that was a US-specific thing.

to be honest i have no idea, but since this thread is specifically talking about amazon / the kindle here i'm not sure why that would be relevant. anyway whether or not we do we certainly have a lot of used paper books and used paper book shops...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

to be honest i have no idea, but since this thread is specifically talking about amazon / the kindle here i'm not sure why that would be relevant.

Not particularly relevent, but when you said that "we" lose first sale rights you seemed to be including yourself in the group of people who had that right. As far as I'm aware, this is not a "right" which exists anywhere except in the USA.

But I probably just misinterpreted your statement.

[zelda_pinwheel]

well, i include myself in the group of "ebook users" who considers that drm causes me to lose significant rights, including (at least on a hypothetical level) the right to resell my books at any of the multitude of used bookshops available to me ; however i don't see how whether or not the "first sale" right specifically exists in france or not adds anything to the discussion or modifies the postulate at all. we clearly do have the right to resell our used books in france, there's even an entire postcard industry depending on the used book sellers along the seine. i can't do that with an ebook.

[astra]

It is easy to ferret the trolls out.

Just check how many reviews they have written on amazon. If it is 1-2, then dismiss the review.

[konagirl63]

I found some great free book sites. very nice to use.

[skyhawk]

I got my Kindle2 yesterday (Friday) and really like it so far. Bought a couple of books, and converted sveral MSWord docs to read and all well so far. I plan to convert some more docs tonight to read in the days to come. This is my firat experience with a reader and am impressed so far.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by konagirl63

I found some great free book sites. very nice to use.

konagirl and skyhawk, welcome to mobileread.

You know about the free books here, right?

You'd want the mobipocket format.

Enjoy.

[CCDMan]

I've been reporting them.

Good idea - also mark "No" under "helpful".

I maybe can understand why Amazon allows "reviews" of most products that were not bought at Amazon by the so-called "reviewer" (they may have bought the product elsewhere). It makes no sense for a product that can only be bought at Amazon (there probably are very few second sale Kindles out there and certainly not K2s).


Frankly, if I were Bezos (sadly, I am not <g>), I would only allow reviews it you bought the item (any item) from Amazon. I see nothing at all wrong with that and am surprised they have not done this.

My wife's K2 just came yesterday and so far she loves it. Only issue is that, unlike the K1, it seems to require that you formally "eject" it from USB instead of just unplugging the USB cable, which works fine with the K1. If you fail to do this it will need to be rebooted before it will connect a second time.