DRM, Rentals, DRM-stripping and Morality

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Royalties from the author, among other things.

How do you "steal" something that never existed?

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

How do you "steal" something that never existed?

I think that some people don't see a distinction between a potential sale and real sale that is prevented from occurring. They assume that every potential sale will turn into a real sale.

So they think that every time a file is copied, a real sale that otherwise would have been made has now been prevented.

It is the royalties or licensing fee or sale price for this prevented sale that is regarded as having been "stolen."

The question is, when is the assumption correct, and when not? It seems to me that copying for personal use always involves a question of time shifting or device shifting.

In that context, my own view is that I've already paid for the file, so nothing is "stolen." I think some people believe that you are required to buy the file again if you use it on a different device or outside the time parameters set by the "license" at the time of purchase.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by Harmon

I think that some people don't see a distinction between a potential sale and real sale that is prevented from occurring. They assume that every potential sale will turn into a real sale.

So they think that every time a file is copied, a real sale that otherwise would have been made has now been prevented.

It is the royalties or licensing fee or sale price for this prevented sale that is regarded as having been "stolen."

The question is, when is the assumption correct, and when not? It seems to me that copying for personal use always involves a question of time shifting or device shifting.

In that context, my own view is that I've already paid for the file, so nothing is "stolen." I think some people believe that you are required to buy the file again if you use it on a different device or outside the time parameters set by the "license" at the time of purchase.

I'm somewhat with you. Not everyone who pirates is a potential sale. How many people would have bought it at any price? 2dboy, makers of World of Goo, did a sale where people could literally pay any price they wanted. They found out that while many people did buy, they still had people pirating. Price was basically removed from the equation, and some people felt that any price was too much.

Also, some who pirate can later become potential sales. I'll admit I've pirated music, often finding odd ball bands that others recommended and I couldn't get through ordinary channels. Once I find I like the band, I then track them down and buy their music. I got a big stack of CDs I've bought that way. If I had limited myself to normal commercial means (such as radio), I'd have not known about the band, other than a mention, and not bought their music. I've not done this with ebooks, because its easier to get a hold of stuff, and there is so much available for free, but the concept does hold. Person pirate, person likes pirated work, person buys.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I'm somewhat with you. Not everyone who pirates is a potential sale.

[snip]

Also, some who pirate can later become potential sales.

[snip]

Person pirate, person likes pirated work, person buys.

This is undoubtedly true, and often repeated. But it is also true that *some* people who pirate were potential sales.

[anamardoll]

I kind of feel like these endless piracy threads just entrench everyone more firmly in their starting opinion. Has anyone ever changed their position based on one of these threads?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I kind of feel like these endless piracy threads just entrench everyone more firmly in their starting opinion. Has anyone ever changed their position based on one of these threads?

I have realised that there's a distinct difference between a library ebook and a rented ebook.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I have realised that there's a distinct difference between a library ebook and a rented ebook.

Depends on who you ask. Depends on the situation. If someone lost all their library and was looking between replacing their books with (free) library books versus (cheap) rental books, what would the difference be? Different people are going to feel differently depending on who you ask.

Like many complex moral questions, I think this is the sort of thing that people have to work through on their own. But that's just my opinion.

EDIT: And not saying these threads shouldn't exist or a reflection on you as the OP, just worried about the plethora of these threads maybe generating bad blood.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I kind of feel like these endless piracy threads just entrench everyone more firmly in their starting opinion. Has anyone ever changed their position based on one of these threads?

Exactly!

[ApK]

Originally Posted by ApK

There have been contradictory court opinions on whether this type of stripping is indeed illegal under the DMCA. It is by no means certain. We as the population can help shape the interpretation of the laws in this way. It is not NECESSARILY breeding contempt for the law, but can instead be insuring more laws are just, and so there would be less need to be contemptuous because of unjust laws. To this end, I remind all once again that just over a month from now, in October, the Library of Congress will begin accepting public input on it's administrative rule making process, in which they have the power to declare that this sort of DRM stripping for non-infringing use is indeed legal. We should all provide that input.
ApK

It's October folks!
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=152450
Let's provide some input!