which ereader for writing overlaying pdf / epub

[Quoth]

Well, it's rubbish. Tested 5 Sage, 1 Elipsa, iPad, remarkable and X201.
The Wacom devices are all far slower.

It may depend on which FW version, writing pressure and if the ereader is fully awake.

[HarryEngineer]

Was going to ask your thoughts on the Pocketbook Ink X... but it uses Wacom, so I guess its a no go.

[Aleron Ives]

Check the MyDeepGuide episodes for the Elipsa and Supernote to compare for yourself. The idea that Wacom is bad is nonsense. Voja has many Boox reviews as well, if you want to go the Android route.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6kA3-XvvmE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h29n-T-2AE

Note that Supernote has been consistently updating its software since release and has added many new features over the years, so the software is in a better state now than it was at the time of the original review. You'll need to browse the subsequent Supernote update videos to learn about the various improvements since then. Kobo hasn't really done anything with the Elipsa software, so the original review still stands as far as what you'll get from the Elipsa today. (The reviews are in multiple parts. I've only linked to part one for each device.)

[Quoth]

Wacom isn't bad. I've used it on MANY devices. But Ntrig (MS & Kobo) is better.


Videos by random enthusiasts / reviewers are near useless and not accurate, scientific or unbiased.

[kandwo]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Wacom isn't bad. I've used it on MANY devices. But Ntrig (MS & Kobo) is better.


Videos by random enthusiasts / reviewers are near useless and not accurate, scientific or unbiased.

He has a video where he explains his methodology and shows his measuring gear. As long as he uses the same method for all devices, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Why should we trust your assertion over his measuring? Your feeling after having tested what - 4 different devices - is supposed to be more trustworthy than his experiments?

You also dislike all Android e-ink devices, having tried one of the slowest - the Likebook Mars. There's no comparison to recent Boox devices using BSR. (Not that I'd necessarily recommend them because of other issues, but still.)

[Quoth]

He's likely measuring screen response time, not writing latency.

I've tested at least 4 Wacom models/systems, 7 Kobos (3 models of pen) and Apple Pencil on iPad. Also resistive passive stylus screens, Palm OS models and I designed a pen system and had a patent. I've designed and prototypes various gadgets inc 4G tablet with VOIP runnning Debian and choice of QT windows like, QT phone edition and IceWm.

What I think about Android is irrelevant to this discussion. It has a value if you want eink and 3rd party apps like Kindle, Nook, Google playbooks, Libby, Borrowbox etc all at the same time for DRM encumber ebooks. As a dedicated ereader platform it's pointless. Sony proved that with T1, T2 and T3 vs PRS-650. Android on eink is either to offer 3rd party apps, or companies that can't be bothered to do a proper Linux. The stock Android GUI isn't even suitable for eink. I actually think the only lack the the Mars is no stock ereader that uses metadata instead of file browsing. The Mars is irrelevant because it's got no digitiser and I've had plenty of old LCD Android that are slower than the Mars. I've never complained about it's speed.

Wacom is ancient and buggy. That's why MS bought Ntrig. Apple, of course, famously denied anyone would want one and when they decided it was a good idea they did their own, at x2 to x5 the retail price of alternatives compatible with the Pencil.

And yes, the Boox sound good, but seem expensive and hyped.

[kandwo]

Originally Posted by Quoth

He's likely measuring screen response time, not writing latency.

Whatever it is - writing latency, screen response time - he shows, in milliseconds, how long it takes for the line to appear after the tip has touched the surface of the screen. I don't see why it matters to the user writing with the pen what exactly is being measured, but the result thereof.

And in his tests Sage and Elipsa are slower. He is also not the only reviewer complaining about the speed. Or the pen, which apparently is uncomfortable to write with for longer periods (according to him and some other Youtubers - I haven't tested it). Add to that the battery life of the Sage, which drops precipitously when writing actively, and the lack of functionality compared to Boox or Supernote, and I don't see why Kobo would be recommended. Especially as Kobo is in no hurry to improve the note taking functionality.

I would love Kobo to be great in that department. In fact, I would love to be able to use only Kobo for everything e-ink. But until they improve some aspects of the writing and dictionary use that won't happen.

(My dream would be to use something like an upgraded version of the PineNote, but I doubt that'll ever be available.)

[Aleron Ives]

Regardless of Voja's methodology, seeing the devices in action will give Harry much more useful information regarding which one he should buy than listening to us debate the merits of active vs passive pens in theory.

[HarryEngineer]

Originally Posted by Aleron Ives

Regardless of Voja's methodology, seeing the devices in action will give Harry much more useful information regarding which one he should buy than listening to us debate the merits of active vs passive pens in theory.

Yes thats rue, but all you guys help has been great...

im likely to go with kobo, if remarkable and supernote allow some sort of trial and return, I may buy aswell, if not just kobo it is.

[HarryEngineer]

Originally Posted by kandwo

Whatever it is - writing latency, screen response time - he shows, in milliseconds, how long it takes for the line to appear after the tip has touched the surface of the screen. I don't see why it matters to the user writing with the pen what exactly is being measured, but the result thereof.

Agreed.


The other thing is - you cant have it all your way.

The kobo seems the best all rounder + more - Its not the fastest latency pen, but then the other features make it a better choice - offline handwriting conversion, organized documents through metadata tagging in calibre, can read more formats, a linux OS, an internal but removable SD card, Drag and drop files/docss/books via USB - no proprietary software.

I strongly despise companies defaulting to android just because they cant be ar_sed to design there own interface. Android wasn't made for e-readers, it was made to monopolize the phone market and spy on its users en masse.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by kandwo

Whatever it is - writing latency, screen response time - he shows, in milliseconds, how long it takes for the line to appear after the tip has touched the surface of the screen. I don't see why it matters to the user writing with the pen what exactly is being measured, but the result thereof.

1. It's the capture, not the appearance of a line that counts, which is variable on them all.
2. It does matter. You can write as fast as you like on a Sage, then double tap and it's converted. You can't do either of those on a reMarkable.
3. Visible response varies with firmware and possibly other issues I don't understand. It would be easy to make multiple videos and pick best for some models and worst for other models. The YouTube review isn't accurate (being polite).

My experience is it's increasingly hard to get accurate honest reviews and ones on YouTube are the worst. Mostly they exist out of ego or to get revenue and most by people unqualified to do the review or clueless./

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by HarryEngineer

an internal but removable SD card

Some Kobo use a micro SD Card (often glued, but the glue can be dissolved/softened easily) and some use a Flash chip. However Kobo isn't locked down. No jailbreak needed.

Originally Posted by HarryEngineer

I strongly despise companies defaulting to android just because they cant be ar_sed to design there own interface. Android wasn't made for e-readers, it was made to monopolize the phone market and spy on its users en masse.

It didn't start that way, Google bought it in and it replaced their war driving of WiFi points to start with (which was never an "accident" of Street View). Also they wanted the Symbain developers using the Mobile Java and desktop devs using full java, which attracted them to Android as back then it used full Java, which mysteriously Sun licensed free to desktop, but wouldn't licence at all for Mobile. Then Sun was was going to sell Google a licence, but Oracle bought them .
The Google Services Binary Blob is closed and full of spyware.

[kandwo]

Originally Posted by Quoth

1. It's the capture, not the appearance of a line that counts, which is variable on them all.
2. It does matter. You can write as fast as you like on a Sage, then double tap and it's converted. You can't do either of those on a reMarkable.
3. Visible response varies with firmware and possibly other issues I don't understand. It would be easy to make multiple videos and pick best for some models and worst for other models. The YouTube review isn't accurate (being polite).

My experience is it's increasingly hard to get accurate honest reviews and ones on YouTube are the worst. Mostly they exist out of ego or to get revenue and most by people unqualified to do the review or clueless./

I'm not sure what you are saying here? Do you mean that while there might be a lag in the lines appearing on a Sage/Elipsa the actual registering of the stroke is faster than on wacom?

If so, what would that change? That you can scribble really fast and double tap to convert to text even before the lines have appeared?

The Boox devices also support conversion to text. How would using wacom make that slower?

Does any of this have any real world consequences? I mean lag between strokes and lines appearing can act distractingly, which is a negative real world consequence. I'm not sure it helps the user knowing that the technology actually has already registered his strokes, but is just slow showing them.

[Aleron Ives]

Originally Posted by kandwo

I'm not sure what you are saying here?

He's saying that he's mad somebody invented an objective measurement system that doesn't agree with his subjective experiences, I guess. Baseless accusations that a YouTube review isn't accurate mean nothing without evidence of wrongdoing, which Quoth hasn't provided.

AFAIK, the only real-world consequence is that some people find devices with high latency annoying to write on, because having the strokes lagging after the pen breaks the illusion that you're writing on the screen. Low latency seems to provide a more pleasant writing experience for most people.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Aleron Ives

He's saying that he's mad somebody invented an objective measurement system that doesn't agree with his subjective experiences, I guess.

Wait till I'm dead to re-interpret what I wrote via your own outlook. Let people make of it what they will. You are close to libel.

Also I don't believe, objectively, that any current model I've used or read about has "high latency".

Maybe the boox is the best. But there is no objective proof in the video, nor is it an appropriate medium ON IT'S OWN for a review.