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Old 08-14-2020, 12:44 AM   #106
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I read through this whole thread hoping that somebody else would ask what a "novelette" is, so I wouldn't have to appear dumb and ask myself. I thought I understand "short story", "novel", and maybe "novella". But now that I've seen this new word (for me) "novelette" I'm back to ground zero. Is a novelette longer or shorter than a novella? I'm assuming it's on the short story side of a novel, and not the tome side.

Too many ways to describe the length of a book. I wish they'd just come up with a standard, albeit arbitrary, definition of the number of words on a "page", and then advertise book lengths based on the number of these agreed upon "pages". Similar to a "mile". Most people have no idea where the definition of that came from, and it doesn't relate to anything concrete in their world (nor do they care if it does or doesn't), but they have a reasonable understanding of what that distance means and can comprehend and make use of what, e.g., "20 miles from here" means.
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Old 08-14-2020, 01:01 AM   #107
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From http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-categories/ :

Quote:
Best Novel: Awarded for a science fiction or fantasy story of forty thousand (40,000) words or more.
Best Novella: Awarded for a science fiction or fantasy story of between seventeen thousand five hundred (17,500) and forty thousand (40,000) words.
Best Novelette: Awarded for a science fiction or fantasy story of between seven thousand five hundred (7,500) and seventeen thousand five hundred (17,500) words.
Best Short Story: Awarded for science fiction or fantasy story of less than seven thousand five hundred (7,500) words.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:25 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZodWallop View Post
I still see a feed of what my friends are reading. I use an ad blocker. Maybe that's the difference?
I thought that the ad blocker may be the reason that I am seeing something different from Issybird, so I turned it off for goodreads.com. I am *still* seeing a feed of what my friends are reading or commenting on, but there were a few "sponsored" posts showing up. I went through the feed and counted, and the ratio was 74 posts from my friends to 5 sponsored posts. Hardly "just the chinks between the promotional matter" that Issybird described.

I wonder why she is seeing so many more promotions than either you or I are seeing?

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Old 08-14-2020, 12:00 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
As for bitching about previous winners? I don't mind that much when the bitching is about flaws in the story but when the complaint is about the author's behaviour or lack of political correctness...
The older fans bitch about the newer winners with phrases like "Politically correct and dull. One described as lesbians in space. All by women, one called Tamsyn" and "They all sound terribly boring to me." So you know, real hard-hitting analysis that has more to do with the quality of the individual works rather than filtering their opinions through some political viewpoint
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Old 08-14-2020, 02:00 PM   #110
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I think one strong indication of the politics rampant in Worldcon can be seen by examining DisCon3 special statement on diversity. Discon3 endorses and encourages donation to organizations whose prime purpose is defunding the police and dismantling capitalism. Why would the organization feel the need to be a political advocate far outside the world of literature?

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Old 08-14-2020, 02:40 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomk2 View Post
I think one strong indication of the politics rampant in Worldcon can be seen by examining DisCon3 special statement on diversity. Discon3 endorses and encourages donation to organizations whose prime purpose is defunding the police and dismantling capitalism. Why would the organization feel the need to be a political advocate far outside the world of literature?

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Yes, I can not imagine why a SFF focused organization would possibly feel the need to be political. What a Brave New World they must think they are in. Or maybe they think they hopped in a time machine to check out the 1984 Olympic Games. Maybe they wanted to ask if a friend of theirs named Ender (was) Game to join them on a video game marathon.

Because SFF has clearly never been political commentary ever.
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:29 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by MGlitch View Post
Yes, I can not imagine why a SFF focused organization would possibly feel the need to be political. What a Brave New World they must think they are in. Or maybe they think they hopped in a time machine to check out the 1984 Olympic Games. Maybe they wanted to ask if a friend of theirs named Ender (was) Game to join them on a video game marathon.



Because SFF has clearly never been political commentary ever.
There is a difference between literature and ideas that are provocative and recommending you donate money to controversial organizations with links conveniently provided. Your examples are of the works of authors and the the themes of their books. Discon3 is actively involved in politics for organizations that author no SFF works.

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Old 08-14-2020, 03:49 PM   #113
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In case others would rather not blindly accept one person's opinion on what discon3's special message is all about (without even providing a link).

https://discon3.org/news/a-message-from-discon-iii/

Yeah. That's some real rampant politicking going on there.
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:14 PM   #114
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As far as I am concerned, the Hugos are a popularity contest and have never had any pretensions of being anything else. You want literary pretensions, hit the Nebula awards.

As for Baen readers not going to conventions? I've met quite a few other Baen fans at various cons. In many ways, a rather jaded and cynical group that I've had several enjoyable drinks and conversations with.
A Baen book was nominated for the Nebula 2019 award for best novel. Plus, there is more publisher diversity then the Hugos

https://nebulas.sfwa.org/award-year/2019

Best Novel
Marque of Caine by Charles E. Gannon, published by Baen
The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow, published by Redhook
A Memory Called Empire by Arkady Martine, published by Tor
Gods of Jade and Shadow by Silvia Moreno-Garcia, published by Del Rey
Gideon the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir, published by Tor.com
* Winner: A Song for a New Day by Sarah Pinsker, published by Berkley

Best Novella
“Anxiety Is the Dizziness of Freedom” by Ted Chiang, published by Knopf
“The Haunting of Tram Car 015” by P. Djèlí Clark, published by Tor.com
* Winner: “This Is How You Lose the Time War” by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone, published by Gallery and Saga Press
“Her Silhouette, Drawn in Water” by Vylar Kaftan, published by Tor.com
“The Deep” by Rivers Solomon, Daveed Diggs, William Hutson, and Jonathan Snipes, published by Gallery and Saga Press
“Catfish Lullaby” by A C Wise, published by Broken Eye Books
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:18 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
In case others would rather not blindly accept one person's opinion on what discon3's special message is all about (without even providing a link).



https://discon3.org/news/a-message-from-discon-iii/



Yeah. That's some real rampant politicking going on there.
So I emailed Discon3, and asked it the organizations they recommended donations to were vetted or investigated. I received a reply that they had done just that. So I opened the links and there was one organization calling for defunding the police, a second for dismantling capitalism. I again emailed Discon3 and asked if they were anti-police or anti- capitalism. They replied that they stood behind their statement and the links provided.

Anti-capitslism and anti-police were the "top of the page" mission statements for those organizations. Their primary purpose. You couldn't miss it. Unless you never looked and just wanted to virtue signal by listing those organizations.

Why would a SFF awards organization choose to behave like this? I ask because I wanted to join it, but not if it is instead a political organization.

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Old 08-14-2020, 04:22 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by hildea View Post
From http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-categories/ :

Quote:
]Best Novel: Awarded for a science fiction or fantasy story of forty thousand (40,000) words or more.
Best Novella: Awarded for a science fiction or fantasy story of between seventeen thousand five hundred (17,500) and forty thousand (40,000) words.
Best Novelette: Awarded for a science fiction or fantasy story of between seven thousand five hundred (7,500) and seventeen thousand five hundred (17,500) words.
Best Short Story: Awarded for science fiction or fantasy story of less than seven thousand five hundred (7,500) words.
If a story has exactly 17,500 words, is it a novella or is it a novelette?
If a story has exactly 40,000 words, is it a novella or a novel?
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:23 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by shalym View Post
I thought that the ad blocker may be the reason that I am seeing something different from Issybird, so I turned it off for goodreads.com. I am *still* seeing a feed of what my friends are reading or commenting on, but there were a few "sponsored" posts showing up. I went through the feed and counted, and the ratio was 74 posts from my friends to 5 sponsored posts. Hardly "just the chinks between the promotional matter" that Issybird described.

I wonder why she is seeing so many more promotions than either you or I are seeing?

Shari
Maybe it also has to do with what browser you are using.
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:48 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
If a story has exactly 17,500 words, is it a novella or is it a novelette?
If a story has exactly 40,000 words, is it a novella or a novel?
You didn't bother to read the definition of novel. 40,000 words is explicitly a novel.

To be consistent with the other definitions a 17,500 word book is a novella.

[40000, ...) novel
[17500, 40000) novella
[7500, 17500) novelette
(..., 7500) short story

Presumably, there is a lower limit for short story, but none is given. It might be nice to know what the shortest published Hugo eligible short story is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(mathematics)

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Old 08-14-2020, 05:13 PM   #119
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Why would a SFF awards organization choose to behave like this? I ask because I wanted to join it, but not if it is instead a political organization.
Can an SFF organization not announce support for other organizations with political goals (among many) without becoming a political organization themselves? I choose to let the special statement itself speak for what discon3 is espousing.

There's a lot more than two links on that page to a lot more organizations that aren't political. And even those two orgs that ruffled your feathers have more goals than the two you chose to zero in on.

Would you have raised an eyebrow if they'd listed an organization whose list of goals (among many) included a political stance/movement you supported?
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:53 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Tomk2 View Post
Anti-capitslism and anti-police were the "top of the page" mission statements for those organizations. Their primary purpose. You couldn't miss it. Unless you never looked and just wanted to virtue signal by listing those organizations.

Why would a SFF awards organization choose to behave like this? I ask because I wanted to join it, but not if it is instead a political organization.
So I opted to look at DisCon3's site, and the places they ask you to donate just to see what you were talking about. The below are excerpts taken from the organizations respective websites that are linked by DisCon3:

Quote:
1) The Carl Brandon Society: The Carl Brandon Society’s mission is to increase racial and ethnic diversity in the production of and audience for speculative fiction.
Yes this seems radically inappropriate for a SFF org to suggest donations.

Quote:
2) Black Science Fiction Society:

Black Science Fiction Society is a group grounded in a philosophical framework created by activist Maulana Karenga known as Kwanza, which centers around 7 distinct principles known as The Nguzo Saba: (I'm not going to list them as it gets a bit long, but the essence is to build and foster a strong community which continues to grow).
Their manifesto (their word choice) includes several things (none of which are anti-capitalism or anti-police) and can best be summed up by their number ten item "Build a self perpetuating system by which black science fiction and grow and thrive"

Again an absolutely shocking organization for a SFF organization to suggest donating to.

Quote:
BLM DC:

Black Lives Matter DC is a member based abolitionist organization centering Black people most at risk for state violence in DC, creating the conditions for Black Liberation through the abolition of systems and institutions of white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy and colonialism.
Well we finally have an actual mention of one of your complaints, anti-capitalism. But it's one of several, yet the only one you opted to focus on. Still, all of these are topics dealt with in SFF and which affect SFF authors, and y'know the world they (and we) live in.

Though one thing I did find absolutely objectionable is the color choice, at least on Mac OS X with Firefox, white text on a bright yellow background? That alone is almost enough to make me want to concede this organization to your view. Almost.

Quote:
FreedomFightersDC (@FFDC2020):

A predominantly Black-led group of activists focused on change through organized actions while simultaneously advocating to #DefundThePolice
Hardly "anti-police" if one takes the time to understand the concept, and very certainly not boldly stating they are "anti-police" as you claimed was on these pages. It's also yet another theme in SFF which also impacts SFF writers and readers.

Quote:
The NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund:

America’s premier legal organization fighting for racial justice. Through litigation, advocacy, and public education, LDF seeks structural changes to expand democracy, eliminate disparities, and achieve racial justice in a society that fulfills the promise of equality for all Americans. LDF also defends the gains and protections won over the past 80 years of civil rights struggle and works to improve the quality and diversity of judicial and executive appointments.
So, no anti-police comments here, nor anti-capitalist. They state they wish to expand democracy which I'd think is something most folks in the US at least would support or at least not find "controversial". And, this is becoming a theme here, these are all issues that are dealt with both in SFF works and by SFF writers.

Care to actually cite your examples, because thus far you seem to have shown a tendency to exaggerate the goals of these organizations, while also downplaying or entirely ignoring some/most of their goals, or the organization entirely.
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