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Old 04-19-2024, 02:25 AM   #61
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I have no problem with personal preference. You are reading things into what I'm saying that don't follow from what I've said.
Sorry if I've read too much into your post.
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Old 04-19-2024, 04:00 PM   #62
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I don't know if it will harm my eyes. I just know it's uncomfortable for me to read on an LCD screen and that I don't last long when trying to read on a tablet or a smartphone.

I haven't personally held a color E-Ink reader, so I have no idea what I would think of one if I did. I'm guessing it would just be a novelty for me.
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Old 04-20-2024, 02:14 PM   #63
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Personally I think Kobo have jumped the gun, and I am hoping that poor uptake won't kill color e-ink ereaders off. I also don't think Amazon have missed an opportunity. It is certainly not a guarantee that enough color e-ink readers will be regularly sold.

We need to ask ourselves, as Kobo should have - Who are these new color e-ink readers going to attract?

I've wanted a color e-ink reader for years, gotten fed up waiting for them. But I haven't been game to try any of those who have been providing for the last 6 months or so.

I do however trust Amazon or Kobo enough to dip my toes in their water.

The only problem is, there is not a lot of benefit to a color e-ink reader if it is less than 10" at a minimum. Sure, it would be nice to see covers in color, even if somewhat washed out in many cases. What I really want color for is Magazines, Graphic Novels and Comics. To that end I bought myself a 10" Samsung Tablet years ago, and it has served me well the few times I have used it. A lot of money spent though, for minimal use ... though I have used it for web browsing and watching a few videos when on holiday.

So anyway, back to my question.

Maybe Kobo are hoping to get new users, that will finally consider an e-ink reader now that they have some semblance of color. Other than that, perhaps they are also hoping to attract some Kindle users to the Kobo ecosystem. Then I guess there will be a few folk, who will have to have it because color is the latest and greatest in e-ink tech.

What I'm not so sure is going to happen, is that many existing e-ink users are going to buy yet another e-ink device, just for the minimal benefit of color on a 6" or 7" device.

It would be a different story, if we were talking 10".
I'd buy one tomorrow, but now I still have to keep waiting.
And so I reckon do most of those that have visual issues with tablets.
A 7" color e-ink device is not a tablet replacement, not for what we want to use one for.

All that said, price difference with B&W is where success of eventual uptake will likely lie. So if color is phased in and B&W gradually phased out, then color will become the new norm ... just as happened with color TVs.

So I guess it is all about production costs and any possible subsidy, due to a mutual aim. And of course tech advances are likely to continue regardless anyway ... as they have thus far, despite e-ink being more niche now, due to tablets.
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Old 04-21-2024, 07:03 AM   #64
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But with a Color TV you could get the same sharpness, brightness, contrast and millions of colours. The resolution of eink for 6" panels hasn't increased in over 10 years. There are no panels better than 300 dpi. So it would be a disaster if mono eink was "phased out" as the colour eink is half the resolution, less contrast, nearly unusable in indoor ambient light without frontlight and unlike colour TV, only has about 4000 pastel shades that can shift in hue when darker and can't do video.

There has been very little significant technical advance in 10 years, and Kaleido was possible since front lights available (PW1 and Kobo glo etc), it's just translucent print on a mono panel. The ACeP Colour is at version 3 and still useless for an ereader as it's x10 slower than regular eink. The regular eink is very slow and has only got marginally better at speed at expense of power.

You can get tablets are are paper like, and while not quite as good for novels (mono text), they won't give eyestrain, have very good battery life when reading and far better than coloured eink or AEcP/Gallery3 (which is useless for an ereader anyway).

You are quite right that the main value of colour eink is 10″ or larger.
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Old 04-21-2024, 03:20 PM   #65
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Of course you are right. They won't be phasing out B&W e-ink ereaders until the color ones are at least as good ... or at least good enough... at least hopefully not.

And of course I wasn't suggesting a full comparison with Color TV versus B&W either. It was more about resistance to change, despite some level of improvement, which will likely increase over time.

While I like my tablet and use it sparingly, I don't agree it is anywhere near as nice for my older eyes as an e-ink screen is. Of course, younger eyes are mostly far more forgiving.

Sometimes I feel like that one nerdy guy that has an e-ink device, while many around me have a tablet, usually an iPad. So I certainly see e-ink devices as very niche, now that we have tablets and their benefits. Color e-ink devices, at least to my mind, are a way, if they work well enough, to reduce some of that niche aspect, perhaps even stop the decline of e-ink device uptake.

Most of us who have e-ink devices love them, and prefer them for our eyes. It has always been a costly pursuit though, for a one use device, unlike a tablet, which is generally more expensive but does so much more.

One cannot help but think of a device in terms of a cost on top of the purchase of an ebook. And if you have a few devices like me (2 Kindle, 1 Kobo and 2 Tablets), it has been an expensive endeavor for sure. But for me it has been worth it and I certainly prefer reading an ebook now. But then I make sure I have great covers that give much more or a semblance of a physical hard cover novel, and less of a techy device feel.

And while I regularly switch between my Paperwhite and my Kobo Libra H20, it is the latter with its buttons that I prefer, and for a few years now I have been mostly buying my ebooks from the Kobo store ... depending on ebook price and availability.

So I will eventually get another Kobo e-ink device, and it might as well be a color one, but I want it to be 10" too. My wife has the smaller Clara, which is better weight wise for her.
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Old 04-22-2024, 09:50 AM   #66
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What I really want color for is Magazines, Graphic Novels and Comics. To that end I bought myself a 10" Samsung Tablet years ago, and it has served me well the few times I have used it. A lot of money spent though, for minimal use ...
I agree that color use cases really match much better with a larger, magazine or comic, sized tablet.

Amazon's 10" Fire tablet is $139. Cheaper than these color eInk 7" devices. I don't think price is going to work in the eInk's favor.

Light weight is certainly an advantage of eInk. People mention batter life, but I don't think that's as much of a factor, truly. It's a talking point, but you simply charge your tablet over night, it's not a big deal.

You are also hitting the mark about a single use device. That cuts both ways. Some like a device that's only for reading. Me, if I love that I can watch movies, and engage in social media etc. AND read books and magazines.

Reading outside is another great advantage. I'd rather take an eInk to the beach. Not that I go to the beach that often.
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Old 04-22-2024, 12:27 PM   #67
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I agree that color use cases really match much better with a larger, magazine or comic, sized tablet.

Amazon's 10" Fire tablet is $139. Cheaper than these color eInk 7" devices. I don't think price is going to work in the eInk's favor.

Light weight is certainly an advantage of eInk. People mention batter life, but I don't think that's as much of a factor, truly. It's a talking point, but you simply charge your tablet over night, it's not a big deal.

You are also hitting the mark about a single use device. That cuts both ways. Some like a device that's only for reading. Me, if I love that I can watch movies, and engage in social media etc. AND read books and magazines.

Reading outside is another great advantage. I'd rather take an eInk to the beach. Not that I go to the beach that often.
Yep, price will certainly be a factor for most ... and the washed out aspect right now.

If I am going to watch a movie or even a TV series, then unless I am away with limited options, I am always going to use a large widescreen TV ... or maybe a smaller one in the bedroom, if just a TV series or one of the few good reality TV shows. Just like I will never read an ebook on my phone, unless I am out and twiddling my thumbs somewhere. Small screens hold no allure or attraction for me.

Pretty rare for me to read outside these days ... and it would be in the shade if I did.

My 10" Samsung Tablet still has most of its charge 6 or more months later, so I've rarely needed to charge it. But then I'm only reading something on it now and then .. usually a graphic novel or mostly it seems, a biography that contains photos. It holds its charge for a damn long time, far far longer than any of my e-ink readers, which will go flat even if I don't use them ... and that's with Wifi turned off. Wifi is only ever on momentarily, when I sync for a recent purchase.

I would buy a 10" reputable color e-ink device, and use that instead of my tablet, just to be kinder to my eyes, especially in a dark room (i.e. bed at night ... less brightness to disturb my wife too).
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Old 04-30-2024, 09:11 AM   #68
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Exactly. But this is about COLOR eInk. I sympathize with those who can't read comfortably on a tablet AND want/need color.

4096 "colors", 16 shades of gray is terrible compared to a tablet.

But, if that's what you need because a tablet just won't do - you have my sympathies.
Tablet is different then e-ink for reading ereaders are superior here
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Old 04-30-2024, 09:57 AM   #69
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Tablet is different then e-ink for reading ereaders are superior here
That's certainly an opinion that many here have. I don't personally think eInk is a better reading experience. At all.

I do like my Kindle eInk for it's lightness. And, if I were to read outside, in the sun,not shade. Ok. There too. I just don't read under those conditions very often.

For everything else, I prefer a tablet or a phone for reading. The text is MUCH sharper than eInk. The screen response is instant. I can and do have color backgrounds and text to make the reading even more comfortable.

Even though I have the option for black text on white on my tablets, I never choose to read that way.

I do read a lot in dim rooms at night. I live in a climate that is dim for months at a time. I love not having to have a lamp on to read. And even though my eInk device is front lit and that's nice, it's not nearly as nice as a dark background and very muted text. That is VERY comfortable on my eyes.

My apps have more reading features than my eInk reader.

And I like all the other things my tablets and phone do. I'm someone who can manage to "read when I want to read" without being distracted just because my device can do other things.

So no, the way I read - eInk isn't even close to being superior. It's quite a bit inferior.

I just realize it's a personal thing and not an absolute truth. I have no issue with someone preferring eInk. There are many reasons too. The nonsense are those who've said all along that reading on anything else but eInk or paper "hurts your eyes, ...science!...". That was and still is, complete and utter nonsense.
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Old 04-30-2024, 03:49 PM   #70
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For everything else, I prefer a tablet or a phone for reading. The text is MUCH sharper than eInk. The screen response is instant. I can and do have color backgrounds and text to make the reading even more comfortable.
Interesting since my iPad Pro is a 264DPI screen compared to my 300DPI eInk devices. My iPhone has a 460DPI screen but comparing it's screen width to a Kobo Sage, to fit the same amount of text on the screen, the text is a lot smaller. The device I have that would be the closest match to my Sage would be my Lenovo M8 FHD with a 283DPI screen resolution though it's 16x10 aspect ratio again means it is narrower than my Sage.

As for colour backgrounds and coloured text making reading more comfortable? Can you point to any peer reviewed studies that support that claim? Or is this your equivalent to those statements about eInk being more comfortable to read on that you so happily dump on?

The studies I looked at a while back featured comments such as:

Quote:
Most of the research that examined the readability of text on a computer screen as a function of foreground-background color combinations was done prior to the world wide web. One of the most consistent findings is that the effects of colors on readability are not consistent (Radl 1980). For example, one study failed to find any significant difference among 24 different color combinations on performance with a text search task (Pace 1984). On the other hand, regardless of the specific color combination, higher levels of contrast appear to lead to better readability (Bruce and Foster 1982; Radl 1980).
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Old 04-30-2024, 04:03 PM   #71
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Interesting since my iPad Pro is a 264DPI screen compared to my 300DPI eInk devices. My iPhone has a 460DPI screen but comparing it's screen width to a Kobo Sage, to fit the same amount of text on the screen, the text is a lot smaller. The device I have that would be the closest match to my Sage would be my Lenovo M8 FHD with a 283DPI screen resolution though it's 16x10 aspect ratio again means it is narrower than my Sage.

As for colour backgrounds and coloured text making reading more comfortable? Can you point to any peer reviewed studies that support that claim? Or is this your equivalent to those statements about eInk being more comfortable to read on that you so happily dump on?

The studies I looked at a while back featured comments such as:
The use of color can be good for some people who have dyslexia.
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Old 04-30-2024, 07:02 PM   #72
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For everything else, I prefer a tablet or a phone for reading. The text is MUCH sharper than eInk. The screen response is instant. I can and do have color backgrounds and text to make the reading even more comfortable.
Do you use the ipad listed for your tablet reading? I've never used one of those. But on the tablet I am using now, the reading experience is not good....not the fault of the tablet though. For example, with the Kobo app, I can't adjust the text to my liking, which gives me ragged edges and a font I don't want. Or line spacing that can't be changed. On the Kobo ereader I have the text exactly the way I want it.

And don't think the Kindle app is any better. The Kindle app has got to be one of the worst ever. It is so slow to load, both on my phone and on my FIRE tablet. You'd think the Amazon tablet would be great for reading books? Ugh. Once you finally get the book you want to open, it's fine. Maybe it's because I have a huge library, I don't know. But it's terrible. (It's actually better on my phone than on the Amazon Fire tablet!) Reading on a Kindle ereader is MUCH more satisfactory.

So now I'm curious about those two apps on the ipad. I feel certain the Kobo app is just as uncustomizable. Does the Kindle app load fast and work great on the ipad?

Just curious. The ipad is not something I've ever tried.

I see you have a Fire 8 HD listed as your device. That's my newest. Kindle app is so slow!

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Old 04-30-2024, 07:16 PM   #73
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The Kobo and Kindle apps both load quickly on my iPad Pro and my iPhone. OTOH, the customization on either them is not great. At least the Kobo app has a download all function while the Kindle app insists that tapping on each book to download the book is the only way to go. Both apps are better than their Android equivalent running on my Lenovo M8 FHD but that is damning with faint praise.

My main use for the iPad Pro was PDFs since I had a mass of manuals that were in PDF (either letter or A4 size) that were much easier to read on either my laptop or the iPad Pro compared to my Sage. As a novel reading device, it was too heavy to hold for any length of time.
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Old 05-01-2024, 12:20 AM   #74
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Interesting since my iPad Pro is a 264DPI screen compared to my 300DPI eInk devices.
My iPad mini is 326dpi. If your eReader was the size of the iPad Pro, the dpi would be less.

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As for colour backgrounds and coloured text making reading more comfortable? Can you point to any peer reviewed studies that support that claim? Or is this your equivalent to those statements about eInk being more comfortable to read on that you so happily dump on?

The studies I looked at a while back featured comments such as:
Who needs peer reviewed studies? I have eyes. The reason it’s more comfortable reading in the dark with a dark color background and muted text is that the contrast is lower.

And the only thing I’m dumping on are the absurd claims that science proved reading on anything but paper or eInk was bad for your eyes. Complete rubbish.

“I like reading on eInk best”. Not rubbish at all. It’s a perfectly fine opinion and preference to have.

And now that eInk has color…it’s well…it’s only “not terrible” if reading on a tablet is something someone can’t do comfortably. Because the color on those devices is horrible.

But, you know, some folks will like it.
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Old 05-01-2024, 12:33 AM   #75
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Posts: 2,945
Karma: 26738313
Join Date: Aug 2009
Device: iPad Mini, iPhone X, Kindle Fire Tab HD 8, Walmart Onn
Quote:
Originally Posted by booklover6 View Post
Do you use the ipad listed for your tablet
Not for a long time. My current iPad mini has a dpi of 326 and my iPhone 460.

Quote:

And don't think the Kindle app is any better.
My kindle app is FAR more responsive than my kindle eInk reader. It’s not even close, page turning is instant with no blinking between pages. Changing orientation is instant. Going from book to library is instant. Changing the font setting is instant. Color options and not just toggling white and black.

But I’m not limited to just the kindle app. FBReader is my app of choice. Run a finger up and down to adjust the brightness. Set 5 of the 6 tap regions to go forward and one back. That way it doesn’t matter which hand I’m using, one tap and I go forward.

Quote:
I see you have a Fire 8 HD listed as your device. That's my newest. Kindle app is so slow!
I read mostly on my iPad mini and iPhone. My kindle fire tablet is mostly my “take movies with me when traveling” device. It does not have the same quality screen and it is a lot slower. Not slower than my eInk tablet, but a lot slower than my iPhone and iPad.

They got better the last version, but still not in league with my Apple devices. Of corse, they were only $50, not $500 or $1000 for the Apple devices.
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