Editing suggestions for my book

[E.M.DuBois]

This is to for me to receive comments, reviews, and editing help/suggestions for my work The Savior Libra, the link to which can be found in the Self-Promotion thread. I was asked to move it here, since everyone was already so gung-ho about me moving it here. I figured generating conversation about it is, in essence, self-promotion, but whatever. So, anyone who has something to say, well, this is your thread. For those who already have offered their opinions, right before the thread was officially moved by a moderator, I had left a post up thanking those who’d contributed.

[Dr. Drib]

Just to make things clear:

1) Your self-promotions thread will not be moved here (unless I misinterpreted your comment above). You are allowed to make a self-promotional post every 7 full days (as you know) in that other thread.

2) This thread in the Writers' Forum is non-promotional, and is used to carry on a discussion of issues related to marketing, publishing, editing, proofreading, etc. one's book.

Have fun!


Don
(Moderator)

[gmw]

Wow, that was an interesting way to start your career in self-publishing.

You have received lots of good advice already. To add to the excellent suggestions from Lemurion concerning self-editing, try using some text-to-speech software to read your story aloud. The computer will always read what's there, your brain won't, and having it speak the words often helps to identify missing or out-of-order words. Not only that, good text-to-speech software can help you discover rhythm problems in your text - sentences that are too long and complex and so on.

Note that, when resorting to self-editing, it is not a matter choosing one of these methods, but using them all. ... And, as already pointed out in that other thread, this will only work if you have the knowledge to identify the errors.

None of the above really makes up for not getting a professional editor, but if that is not an option then you must be willing to put in the effort (and proof-reading four times won't impress anyone ).

As for submitting to Amazon - definitely go direct.

As for price. For a first novel of this length $3.99 is as far as I would go, but you will need to market heavily and offer coupons for free access and so on, especially early on. Don't get your hopes up too high.

There was a suggestion that you might consider splitting this long novel into two or three shorter ones - priced accordingly, perhaps even making the first book free. IF the story lends itself to this, then it is an excellent idea, but readers will get annoyed if your first book doesn't arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. (It can still be obvious that there is more to come, but a cliff-hanger at the end of your first novel will turn away many readers unless the story and writing so far has been truly exceptional.)

Note, too, there is a big difference between free with a coupon and permanently free at Smashwords. Permanently free books can be downloaded without registration, and as such they tend to get downloaded much more often - but it is anyone's guess if/when they actually get read. Free with a coupon on Smashwords only works for registered users and will not get as many hits - and it's still anyone's guess as to when the books may be read. Many download while the books are free, and it goes into the virtual pile where it may or may not ever be looked at again.

Marketing is not something I'm good at, but if you hope to see any interest in your book you need to hunt around for suitable reviewer websites and try submitting with them (follow the rules they will have on their website).

Finding readers is hard work. Marketing, and making sure your preview and presentation doesn't immediately put people off by it's lack of professionalism (lack of editing etc.), are critical. And whatever you try, it will remain an uphill battle just to get people to pick it up and start reading.

In the end: success in writing is about being in it for the long run.

It is very unlikely this first book will earn much, if anything, at all. Be ready for that. Do what you can to make the best of it, you don't want it to be the sample that means no one ever looks at your writing again, but after doing the best you can ... move on.

What Hugh Howey refers to (on his website) as your "breakout book" may not come until the 10th book or even later - if it comes at all. So you need to keep writing and keep publishing. (Do NOT follow my example and let years go by between books .)

[Cinisajoy]

Ok you said you proofread it, did you just proofread for misspelled and wrong words? If so you are probably good there.

Now on editing, don't think of it as your book. Think of it as a book someone else wrote and you have to correct. That is the big key.

I will give you my first thoughts. Oh if Lance is dead in the first paragraph, how is this his story?
Then you just start talking about someone else.
Last line of I think your first or second paragraph.
"She doesn't want to know the story."
First line of the next paragraph, you start talking about something completely different.
The next couple of paragraphs were the same way so I gave up.

My thought was how does this all relate?

It looked like you were trying to introduce all the characters but went about it like it was supposed to be read as a story. If that was your goal, change from prologue to cast of characters and add spaces between the paragraphs.

Sorry, I had a good English teacher who took every one of my papers apart until they were completely understandable.

[ApK]

As Cin's comments illustrate, the suggestion to get competent help with editing does not JUST mean a proofreader or a copy editor.
Perhaps some of the resident pros can spell out the other kinds of help editors might provide?

[gmw]

I wish you hadn't used the phrase "resident pros", ApK, it makes a person very self-conscious about responding to what you wrote.

Editing is a complex topic - and implementation varies with what is being edited. There are multiple levels of editing, and the simple fact is that most self-publishers do not have the resources to get professionals involved at every level. What I describe below is generalised, and I imagine some true professional editors may want to argue the detail, but I think it's close enough to be going on with.

At the top is developmental editing. This is about story structure. Does the whole thing hang together properly? Do the chapters and story sequence work? Do parts of the story drag? Are parts of the story confusing? Are there holes or inconsistencies in story or character development? The answers to these often require major rewrites of large parts of the text. In fiction this tends to be done by the author, sometimes as a result of their own dissatisfaction with their work, and sometimes in response to feedback from trusted readers offered an early draft.

Next up is copy editing. This is mostly about readability and whether the writing style is appropriate to the target audience. During this phase we are generally looking at flow of sentences and paragraphs (rather than chapters and whole story, which was done in developmental editing), but we're also looking at style and consistency: is the language applicable to genre and age group, is dialogue consistent for each character? Basically: does it read smoothly? A comprehensive copy edit pass should normally detect and fix many technical (spelling/grammar) errors as well, because such errors affect readability.

In traditional/paper publishing typesetting goes next. With electronic publication we typically call this formatting, and it is generally done after the proof-reading because layout is automatic. More completely, proof-reading should be done both before and after this stage; before to pick up technical issues, after to pick up layout issues.

And finally proof-reading. This is mostly about strictly technical correctness and finding typos. Generally we are looking at words and punctuation here, but also at sentences and paragraphs from the perspective of correct grammar and presentation (layout).


Independent publishers may not have the resources to get professionals involved at every level BUT we should always be aware of the separate levels and address them specifically when preparing our work for publication.


When most readers refer to a text being poorly edited, what they actually mean is that it was poorly proof-read* - because this is where poor preparation is most obvious. The mistakes stick out as mistakes (more to some readers than others), and they are most often glaring and undeniable (although the correct use of commas is not always so blatant).

* This is a bit of a simplification. Many of the errors seen in self-published works should have been picked up during the copy-edit pass - if it had been done properly. But failing that, proof-reading most certainly should have detected them.

There are tricks to help with proof-reading (some already mentioned), but these only help if the author has the knowledge to recognise the errors - and many don't. If they don't, the only answer is to get help from someone that does.


When readers complain of text that doesn't make sense, as Cinisajoy did, then what we are really talking about is problems at the copy-editing stage. The flow of the sentences and paragraphs is inconsistent and/or illogical and needs to be reworked.


When readers complain about a story that is boring, or drags, or that is confusing, we are talking about problems at the developmental-editing stage. This often suggests a work that was not properly reviewed after the first draft. First timers often seem to think that after the first draft they are done, and all they have to do next is the proof-reading. Most of their problems follow on from this bad first assumption.

A first draft should be looked at as "now I have the story down on paper, let's set about making sure it works".

In Stephen King's non-fiction book "On Writing", he got the advice: "second draft equals first draft less ten percent". Meaning that most often we include more in our first draft than the reader actually needs to know. So, at the very least, the second draft is a rewrite that looks to remove redundancy and irrelevance.

Another, very similar, piece of advice (I can't remember now whether it came from the same source or elsewhere) is: "There is nothing wrong with most first novels that cutting the first three chapters can't fix."

Both of the above highlight that, when we're just starting, we writers tend to underestimate our readers. They don't need to be spoon fed every step of the way, and doing so will only irritate or bore them.

Sure, when writing the first draft we can - and should - just write. We need to get it down. But we must realise what we've done and be ready to pull apart that first draft - do a proper developmental editing pass - and structure our story in a way that will pull the reader in (in the first few pages), and keep them there by always pushing the story forward.

(Sorry about that, I didn't realise I had blathered on quite so long.)

[E.M.DuBois]

Originally Posted by gmw

try using some text-to-speech software to read your story aloud

I can’t believe I didn’t remember that! Back when I was fifteen, my dad’s computer (a Mac that’s been fried now for almost a decade) had exactly that feature on it. I used to use it to read back my English assignments, including the short story that ended up turning into this novel. I can’t believe I haven’t looked into that since! I’ll have to look for it on Word (like I said, never thought of it, so I don’t know where the function is at the moment,) but if it’s not there, do you have any recommendations?

Originally Posted by gmw

There was a suggestion that you might consider splitting this long novel into two or three shorter ones - priced accordingly, perhaps even making the first book free. IF the story lends itself to this, then it is an excellent idea, but readers will get annoyed if your first book doesn't arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. (It can still be obvious that there is more to come, but a cliff-hanger at the end of your first novel will turn away many readers unless the story and writing so far has been truly exceptional.)

There’s another problem with that: There’s a reason the subtitle is “Part I of the Apocalypse Chronicles.” The story I wrote ended up being so long that it’s already been cut up into multiple pieces, all now rewritten to stand-alone at their own novels. Like this one.

Originally Posted by gmw

Finding readers is hard work. Marketing, and making sure your preview and presentation doesn't immediately put people off by it's lack of professionalism (lack of editing etc.), are critical. And whatever you try, it will remain an uphill battle just to get people to pick it up and start reading.

I’ve had some encouraging (I thought) results in the beginning. Just spreading around word on Twitter, I was generating up to 150-200 hits on my novel’s page. Like I said, at the time I found it encouraging to keep up the effort and put more in to grow that number in hope of finding my audience. Well, then it was pointed out how many errors are in my sample alone... so, that’s at least 1400 people who saw them, too. Needless to say, my cheeks were iron-hot when I realized that.

Originally Posted by gmw

Ok you said you proofread it, did you just proofread for misspelled and wrong words? If so you are probably good there.

No, I never just look for those. Along with them, I continuously look for better ways to describe what I imagined, and change my diction to fit it my vision. For example: I’ve gone through this novel four times, looking for typos, inconsistencies, and general ways to make readability better. Guess what? The manuscript I printed out last night to edit by hand (in a changed font completely different than I’m used to reading, as suggested) is already mark-up red on nearly every page I’ve read so far. I’m delving into Chapter Two, now. I’ve cut up and reorganized the order of descriptions for the dream, something I have not seen a problem with since I wrote it.

Also, I love to see how this thread has gone into multiple topics. GMW, I know you said you don’t like the term “resident pros,” but it’s exactly the words I’d use to describe you all. Reading over all this, I feel like I have a bunch of teachers, which is something I haven’t had in a few years. Looking at all this discussion and the subjects being covered, I don’t feel like the burden’s completely on me anymore.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by E.M.DuBois

[text-to-speech...] do you have any recommendations?

I purchased Text Aloud from NextUp software, along with a selection of voices. I like chopping and changing the voice - and I like having a selection of Australian voices to read to me (sorry, but American just sounds wrong ).

The interface is not that pretty, but it is quite flexible. I generally use a slower read-back speed so that I can more easily follow it. I work on small chunks at a time to avoid getting zoned out and missing things.

Originally Posted by E.M.DuBois

There’s another problem with that: There’s a reason the subtitle is “Part I of the Apocalypse Chronicles.” The story I wrote ended up being so long that it’s already been cut up into multiple pieces, all now rewritten to stand-alone at their own novels. Like this one.

Yes, I saw it was part one already - but that didn't necessarily mean that there wasn't some logical shorter division at the start that might work stand alone ... only you can tell that.

It is not uncommon for fantasy to be epic in proportion, but it is one thing that will keep some readers away: even just the first book is a big commitment in time (and not insignificant in monetary terms - at $5.99 could buy six 0.99 books); being part 1 of an indeterminate series makes that potential commitment much larger; the fact that it is only part 1 means that some readers won't even give it a serious look until the series is complete.

Of course, once you do have a fan base then the more long fantasy books you produce the happier everyone will be. But you have to get that fan base first, so you need to consider their reservations in looking at new authors.

Originally Posted by E.M.DuBois

I’ve had some encouraging (I thought) results in the beginning. Just spreading around word on Twitter, I was generating up to 150-200 hits on my novel’s page. Like I said, at the time I found it encouraging to keep up the effort and put more in to grow that number in hope of finding my audience. Well, then it was pointed out how many errors are in my sample alone... so, that’s at least 1400 people who saw them, too. Needless to say, my cheeks were iron-hot when I realized that.

My experience is that there is a big difference between the many that are happy say "gee, wow, aren't you great for writing a book", versus the few that will actually buy and read. I can only hope your experience is better.

Most of us hit some embarrassment along the line. The first edition of my first book had an error at the bottom of the first page that escaped everyone, and had to be fixed up later. I tell those that got printed copies that these will be collectors items in some distant future when I'm famous (ETA: This is not to suggest it was the only error that escaped, just that it seemed, in retrospect, such an obvious one that I could not believe so many people had missed it - and on the first page.)

Originally Posted by E.M.DuBois

[Ok you said you proofread it...]...

You attributed that to me, it was Cinisajoy. Easy to do when dealing with long posts.

Originally Posted by E.M.DuBois

Also, I love to see how this thread has gone into multiple topics. GMW, I know you said you don’t like the term “resident pros,” but it’s exactly the words I’d use to describe you all. Reading over all this, I feel like I have a bunch of teachers, which is something I haven’t had in a few years. Looking at all this discussion and the subjects being covered, I don’t feel like the burden’s completely on me anymore.

One of the reasons why I went on so long about different types of editing is that I found it very helpful to look at my work from those deliberately different perspectives; it helps me to keep focus on what I am trying to achieve at a given point in time.


Bear in mind that the advice I offer tends to be: don't do what I do, do what I say. Yes, I did eventually reduce my first novel by 10% (it took a few goes and some rather harsh criticism from a paid professional reviewer of an early draft); the book was definitely much better for it. Even so, the main criticism I have received for both my first and second novels is that the first half moves too slowly - thus I should, perhaps, have taken to heart the advice to drop the first three chapters (or at least cut more heavily). Never mind, I shall keep trying. Eventually I may get it right - or close enough that I won't feel so embarrassed about offering advice (I believe most of my advice is sound, but it's hard to justify that when I've not managed to gain much attention for my own books).

P.S. I do like the manner in which you have received the various criticisms. Not everyone copes so well; after all the time we put into this work such criticism can hit pretty hard.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by gmw

I wish you hadn't used the phrase "resident pros", ApK, it makes a person very self-conscious about responding to what you wrote.

Ha. I didn't mean to make you feel like your response was a binding ruling. All of us regular participants here are "resident" and you "pros" are those who, in the interest of making a living or a career out of something, have probably put more effort and attention to finding the facts than those of use who just read a magazine or did a Google search. So no pressure.

As one of the "non-pros," I'll say that some of Cin's comments, particularly concerning character introduction, sounded more in the realm of what you called "developmental editing." And while it would indeed usually be the author choosing to take or reject any such advice, and executing any changes, isn't the roll of the typical editor who works with authors at a BPH, to give just that sort of advise to an author, based on their experience with the market and similar works?
Recently, for example, when "Go Set A Watchman" was announced, there was much talk of how Harper Lee's editor drove substantive changes in "To Kill a Mockingbird" that made it the story it was.

That's certainly the impression I get from watching TV shows about writers and editors, like that episode of 'Columbo,' "Publish or Perish."

You, gmw, as an indie author, apparently had that role filled by the experienced reviewer.

ApK
(only ever had to deal with periodical editors, and that's a different job....)

[Cinisajoy]

As the resident "reader" in the writer's corner, I just point out what makes my head spin.

I have proofread and helped edit a few books.
Some took very little work. Some took more. There were a couple that I actually told the "authors" to go take an English class or two. They were that bad.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by ApK

[...] As one of the "non-pros," I'll say that some of Cin's comments, particularly concerning character introduction, sounded more in the realm of what you called "developmental editing." And while it would indeed usually be the author choosing to take or reject any such advice, and executing any changes, isn't the roll of the typical editor who works with authors at a BPH, to give just that sort of advise to an author, based on their experience with the market and similar works? [...]
You, gmw, as an indie author, apparently had that role filled by the experienced reviewer.

Well, the different stages of editing are not completely clean cut, especially when you are looking at a work that we might say escaped early from the process . The nature of that particular problem is partly dependent on the author's intention, which was unclear.

With development editing in traditional publishing (from what I've read, my only actual experience with them is in being rejected) I would describe the publisher/editor as acting in the role that I described as "trusted readers of an early draft" - albeit ones with more than usual influence with the author. For me the distinction here is not so much where the suggested issues have come from, but the fact that the author is the one trying to work out how to solve them - and the solutions could conceivably span the entire novel.

This is quite different to copy editing and proof-reading where the instructions from the editor are usually quite localised and explicit. I guess we might argue that the author still has to accept/execute the changes, and may sometimes choose some alternative solution, but if the editor is good then most changes along these lines would be accepted as given.

Also, some (many?/most?) writers do a lot of (what I would call) development editing long before their traditional publisher sees it. It can be difficult to really nail down the line between writing the story and development editing - I'm not sure it exists.


I have not seen much evidence of indie authors taking on professional development editors, but maybe it happens more than I've seen.

As you say, I tried something like that with a paid professional reviewer, but the experience left something of a bad taste in my mouth (a separate story that I've shared here previously). However I did get some good out of it, because the reviewer did manage to highlight parts of the novel that were excessively drawn out, and so good targets for severe cutting. It was not so much that I was unaware of the problems, but having the review did give me more confidence in where to put the scissors.

[Cinisajoy]

Oh, I am reading a fascinating book right now. "I married a best seller: my life with Arthur Hailey. "
She goes into detail about how much work goes into his books. The research alone takes at least a year. Each of his books was 3 to 4 years in the making.

Anyway, hope all our advice has been a help.

[Lemurion]

One thing I find invaluable, especially at the developmental editing stage, is having good beta readers. The trick is to apply the feedback properly.

As a general rule: whenever they tell you what's wrong, they're right; whenever they tell you how to fix it, they're wrong.

It's simple, when they're telling you "what's wrong," they're describing their own reading experience and it's impossible for them to be wrong about that. What they get from the story is what they get from it. (Marvel comics is having a big issue with this right now; it's telling people who get a certain message from a current event that they're reading it wrong. The people aren't, Marvel just didn't do a good enough job of getting its message across.)

Don't argue with people about how they feel.

The reason that betas often don't suggest good solutions is that sometimes the reason they have the problem is that you didn't explain something well enough many pages earlier. If you fix that, problem solved. Betas can't tell you to fix that because they don't know what it was supposed to do.

[theducks]

Note TTS will not make Homophones obvious. Break vs Brake...

My pet peeve is technological errors.

Spark plug in a Diesel
Open to Air (in outer space)

If you are specific about a technology, be correct.

People love to load their works with the latest buzz Tech. The problem is it out dates the work quickly. Just think about how fast storage media has changed. Music: Edison cylinder, 78,45,33 LP, Open Reel, Cassette, CD, MP3 on flash. Video: Film, VHS/Beta, Laser disc, DVD, Bluray

[darryl]

@E.M.DuBois. I wish you success with your book, and congratulate you on your reaction to the advice given in these forums so far.