Is this a horrible time to be a writer?

[NickSpalding]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Oh, here we go again, the paying the bills argument.

Okay, if you were actually serious about paying the bills with writing why would you write that DRM-laden thing you're trying to flog on here? Even a cursory glance at the market (now or in the last thirty years) will show you that your work is too quirky and does not have any obvious place on the shelves. You're not a celebrity, you have no status in literary circles, and the background story, although interesting, does not transfer to the likes of Tesco and Asda (where a lot of books are sold).

You're defending a system you'll never be granted access to. A system that would reject your work out of hand. They don't want quirky. They don't want individuals. They want series, young adult novels, paranormal bullshit and sentimental romances with a dash of time travel on the side, ghost-written stories with the names of bean-brained ex-glamour models plastered over the front.

Seriously, have a look at that industry you want to be part of and then take a look at what you're producing.

First off, I don't quite know why your getting so hot under the collar...we've just got a difference of opinion, that's all.

Second, I didn't know what DRM meant when I posted the book up and of course Amazon won't let you go DRM free unless you republish the entire book again - which is a real winner of a procedure, I don't think.

The very fact my book is quirky and doesn't have an obvious place in the market is precisely the reason why I chose to self-publish it. It's also not the only thing I've written.

I stand by the argument that to be a successful author - at this time - you need an agent and a publisher.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

First off, I don't quite know why your getting so hot under the collar...we've just got a difference of opinion, that's all.

Second, I didn't know what DRM meant when I posted the book up and of course Amazon won't let you go DRM free unless you republish the entire book again - which is a real winner of a procedure, I don't think.

The very fact my book is quirky and doesn't have an obvious place in the market is precisely the reason why I chose to self-publish it. It's also not the only thing I've written.

I stand by the argument that to be a successful author - at this time - you need an agent and a publisher.

I'm hot under the collar because every other month it's another person in and around here defending DRM or calling people thieves when they share a story or having a go at the very system they're now utilising for their own ends. And then to boldly state that writers don't care or are not good enough because they choose to publish themselves, is an insult. Add to that a sense of bafflement that anybody who valued their own 'product' would blindly walk into digital publishing without knowing, or really caring about what DRM is and what it does to the audience.

You come off as someone who is gaming this site. Just using digital readers and their good will as a stepping stone or a stop gap on your way towards where you actually want to be, within the traditional publishing ecosystem.

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Holy cow, what's in that cookbook?

lol. Would you believe it's a simple country cooking type cookbook?

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

This. I can understand the appeal of some wanting to go the POD route, but I seriously can't get my head around the idea that anyone would choose self-publishing over commercial publishing - or indeed would think it's a better way to be an author.

Well, if you're good at marketing yourself, and you've got a good book, with today's internet and social web, they pretty much sell themselves. Of course, you need to have a good book too, because if your book is total crap, even Random House couldn't sell it for you. But if it's really good and you're good at marketing yourself (or you get help like I did if you aren't), then you don't need a big house to succeed at writing. There's also a question of what you consider success. Is being picked up by a big house your idea of success, or is it selling a lot of books? Because being picked up by a big house is no guarantee of success. If you think it is, ask all the guys who have been signed by a big house only to find themselves in the bargain bin six months later.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

It's for the very same reasons that bands start up their own labels, actors still work in the theatre and writers now turn to the digital. Freedom. If you want to be tied down to some mega-corp and the feckless idiots who work the ladder within that corp, go for it. You're just another company man then, another yes-sir, no-sir, three-bags full hired gun. If you need the permission of a company to value your own creation, then that speaks volumes for that creation. Now you're making a product, not art, not literature. You may as well be flogging Cornflakes.

Epic ten thumbs up on Moejoe's comment! Well said! It's one of several reasons I never went with any of the big houses. At one time it was my dream to be signed with someone like Baen or Random House. That is, until I found out what they're really like. Now I could care less. I found a publisher I'm happy with, and I will keep publishing through them until hell freezes over or I find something better. How you're treated by a publishing company should go a long ways towards deciding who you will ultimately publish with.

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

First off, I don't quite know why your getting so hot under the collar...we've just got a difference of opinion, that's all.

Hmm, maybe it's your attitude?

Second, I didn't know what DRM meant when I posted the book up and of course Amazon won't let you go DRM free unless you republish the entire book again - which is a real winner of a procedure, I don't think.

Wait, you published a book and didn't know what you were getting into? Wow, that's epic levels of fail. Even *I* did my homework before publishing the first time. Yes, I got taken by Amazon, but at the time I did I wasn't finding enough negatives to give me a reason *not* to go with them. It was only after I started the publishing process that the sh** hit the fan.

The very fact my book is quirky and doesn't have an obvious place in the market is precisely the reason why I chose to self-publish it. It's also not the only thing I've written.

*raises hand sheepishly* Uh, stupid question. If you knew it didn't have a place in the market, why bother publishing at all? That's like going out onto a dry lake bed and expecting to catch fish.

I stand by the argument that to be a successful author - at this time - you need an agent and a publisher.

No offense, Nick, but I call epic BS on that statement. I've said it a thousand times before, if the book is good, it will sell itself, regardless of who you publish with, or how you publishing it, with a few obvious exceptions as stated before. Personally, if you're having trouble selling books, one of two things are wrong. Either your book sucks, or you're marketing it wrong. If the first item is true, pull the book from circulation, take a few years out and improve yourself, get feedback, and then write a new book and try again, and keep trying until you do get a good book. If the second is true, then either hire or find someone who knows marketing and work with them to improve your exposure.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I'm hot under the collar because every other month it's another person in and around here defending DRM or calling people thieves when they share a story or having a go at the very system they're now utilising for their own ends. And then to boldly state that writers don't care or are not good enough because they choose to publish themselves, is an insult. Add to that a sense of bafflement that anybody who valued their own 'product' would blindly walk into digital publishing without knowing, or really caring about what DRM is and what it does to the audience.

You come off as someone who is gaming this site. Just using digital readers and their good will as a stepping stone or a stop gap on your way towards where you actually want to be, within the traditional publishing ecosystem.

Here! Here! Well said!

To those who support DRM:
DRM is very anti-consumer, and anyone who thinks DRM is a good thing, and people in general are thieves have serious issues. Why do you think the big labels in the music industry are in such bad shape? Or the RIAA for that matter. They treated their customers like crap and thieves, and it's coming back to haunt them. Piece of advice for you. Your customers are *not* thieves. So stop treating them like thieves by endorsing and using DRM. Be as pro-consumer and give them what they want, which is books that are not encumbered by DRM. They will thank you for it. Ultimately, DRM'ed vs Non-DRM'ed content will become a huge battleground in the future, and those who sell their stuff without DRM will be the ultimate winners. And if you don't believe me, take a look around. It's already becoming a big battleground now. Don't be on the losing side.

[DaringNovelist]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Correct. A POD printer doesn't necessarily need to be a publisher too, such as is the case with a vanity press. In this case the POD she goes through is a local print shop who is large enough to do runs like that for her at a good price. In fact, they also do POD for a lot of self published authors as well. And when I said POD, I did not mean "vanity press" just FYI. Print on Demand can be done by a regular print shop. In fact, that's technically what they do anyways. You demand, they print.

POD, though, is not just "print when you demand it" but a specific technology that is very expensive per piece. While it's getting better at doing mass runs, generally you use more conventional technology when you get up into the thousands.

I realized later that's what moejoe was questioning. (However, as I said, the techonology has revolutionized in the last couple of years. It's also converging, where the high-volume solutions are getting more and more like the by-piece solutions.)

Camille

[NickSpalding]

Good grief...

All I was trying to do was point out that writers are more likely to be successful if they have an agent and a publisher behind them - and that self-publishing in nowhere near mature enough yet to be a convincing alternative to authors who want to professionally write for a living.

I've never defended DRM and never would. It's bloody stupid.

I didn't mean to get anyone's backs up. This is obviously a sensitive matter for a lot of people, so I'll stay away from it.

[Worldwalker]

Just to be picky ... it's "Hear! Hear!" and "I couldn't care less."

/ducks and covers

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

Good grief...

All I was trying to do was point out that writers are more likely to be successful if they have an agent and a publisher behind them - and that self-publishing in nowhere near mature enough yet to be a convincing alternative to authors who want to professionally write for a living.

I've never defended DRM and never would. It's bloody stupid.

I didn't mean to get anyone's backs up. This is obviously a sensitive matter for a lot of people, so I'll stay away from it.

I'm sorry I jumped off on you, but I'm so fed up of being told that I'm somehow less of a writer because I don't want to go through the publishing industry. If I was a musician nobody would bat an eyelid if I started up my own label. As an actor nobody would care if I was doing local theatre productions, but every other writer I meet has this same weird attitude about their own art and how it means nothing if they're not sanctioned by a few corporate book publishers and their hangers on.

So again, apologies, my tirade was more of a build-up of annoyance at an attitude, rather than at you personally.

[NickSpalding]

Thanks Moejoe...

To tell the truth, I can understand a lot of what you're saying - I would never dream to look down on or think anyone less of a writer because they are not with a traditional publisher. It'd be hypocrisy of the highest order.

My point, as I say, is only that I believe at this time the traditional publishing route is still the one more likely to breed success. This may well change in the future and I'll be as happy as anyone it if does.

For now though, i'll still be using my well worn copy of the writer's and artists yearbook

...although they now have a large section about self-publishing, so the good folks who produce it obviously see the merits in it.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

Thanks Moejoe...

To tell the truth, I can understand a lot of what you're saying - I would never dream to look down on or think anyone less of a writer because they are not with a traditional publisher. It'd be hypocrisy of the highest order.

My point, as I say, is only that I believe at this time the traditional publishing route is still the one more likely to breed success. This may well change in the future and I'll be as happy as anyone it if does.

For now though, i'll still be using my well worn copy of the writer's and artists yearbook

...although they now have a large section about self-publishing, so the good folks who produce it obviously see the merits in it.

Ahh, the Yearbook. I don't know how many years I bought that thing, and how many agents names I underscored and then crossed out due to rejection. Man, now I'm nostalgic for the days before being able to write a story in the morning and post it in the afternoon.

[pietvo]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

To those who support DRM:
DRM is very anti-consumer, and anyone who thinks DRM is a good thing, and people in general are thieves have serious issues. Why do you think the big labels in the music industry are in such bad shape? Or the RIAA for that matter. They treated their customers like crap and thieves, and it's coming back to haunt them. Piece of advice for you. Your customers are *not* thieves. So stop treating them like thieves by endorsing and using DRM. Be as pro-consumer and give them what they want, which is books that are not encumbered by DRM. They will thank you for it. Ultimately, DRM'ed vs Non-DRM'ed content will become a huge battleground in the future, and those who sell their stuff without DRM will be the ultimate winners. And if you don't believe me, take a look around. It's already becoming a big battleground now. Don't be on the losing side.

¡AMEN!

[ficbot]

Just for those who think the path to fame and fortune is through an agent and publisher, my dad (who has both) told me that he sold 500 copies of his book in the first year or so, and both his agent and publisher were thrilled with this result...

Granted, this is non-fiction, but still. He told me the real path to fame and fortune is gaining recognition as an expert in the field so he can do public speaking. He is connected with a major media company and actively pursuing this path. He does not anticipate major profits from the book itself, nor, does it seem, do his agent and publisher

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by DaringNovelist

POD, though, is not just "print when you demand it" but a specific technology that is very expensive per piece. While it's getting better at doing mass runs, generally you use more conventional technology when you get up into the thousands.

I realized later that's what moejoe was questioning. (However, as I said, the techonology has revolutionized in the last couple of years. It's also converging, where the high-volume solutions are getting more and more like the by-piece solutions.)

Camille

lol. NP. To me, POD is both a form of printing, and a form of publishing. I sometimes cross the two and don't distinguish which I'm referring to. Sorry about that. ^_^;;

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

Good grief...

All I was trying to do was point out that writers are more likely to be successful if they have an agent and a publisher behind them - and that self-publishing in nowhere near mature enough yet to be a convincing alternative to authors who want to professionally write for a living.

I've never defended DRM and never would. It's bloody stupid.

I didn't mean to get anyone's backs up. This is obviously a sensitive matter for a lot of people, so I'll stay away from it.

Hey, NP. DRM is a touchy subject. It's sorta like politics for writers. I also tend to be a little instinctively jumpy about DRM because it goes against every grain of good business sense I was taught years go. And it goes against my pro-consumer mentality as well, so I tend to be a little itchy on the trigger when it's discussed.

Originally Posted by ficbot

Just for those who think the path to fame and fortune is through an agent and publisher, my dad (who has both) told me that he sold 500 copies of his book in the first year or so, and both his agent and publisher were thrilled with this result...

Granted, this is non-fiction, but still. He told me the real path to fame and fortune is gaining recognition as an expert in the field so he can do public speaking. He is connected with a major media company and actively pursuing this path. He does not anticipate major profits from the book itself, nor, does it seem, do his agent and publisher

It's interesting that you should mention that. If they're getting happy that he sold 500 copies, it sounds like a very niche market and not mass market press. Most of the agents I've talked with only want sci-fi books they are certain will sell at least 150,000 copies, which just personally blows my mind. Of course, that doesn't stop me from selling at least that many on my own through my current publisher, without a big house behind me, or an agent. Not that I'd never sign with one, but I haven't really found a reason yet to justify doing so.

[NickSpalding]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Most of the agents I've talked with only want sci-fi books they are certain will sell at least 150,000 copies, which just personally blows my mind. Of course, that doesn't stop me from selling at least that many on my own through my current publisher, without a big house behind me, or an agent. .

Beer's on u then, buddy

[ficbot]

Yes, it's a little niche market-ish. I certainly would not have read it myself if my father had not written it and given me a copy But he is hooked up with a major media company and has the creds, so he probably has exploited this niche as much as any person could reasonably expect to. But his point was that for non-fiction, he seems to think the real money is not so much in selling copies of the book itself, and I found that an interesting outlook.

I do hope to eventually shop around some fiction, but there are some non-fiction topics dear to my heart that I have been thinking about putting up for free on Smashwords. I do believe that books benefit from editors and would go the 'indie press' route with fiction if I get that far. But for some of my non-fiction, I think I would just want the information out there because I think it would benefit people and I am passionate about the topic, so I would probably just release it for free.

[Freeshadow]

knowledge will always find someone interested in it - go for it
if its for free, there are also great chances someone looks inside just out of curiousity and then *bang* starts learning something new.