Repetitive Strain Injuries?

[MarjaE]

Any idea how to write, transcribe, edit, and so on without worsening repetitive strain injuries?

I gave up on my writing projects due to rsi. I still need to type up other projects despite my rsi.

I currently use a Mac, with an external monitor, external mini keyboard, propped up on the left side so I can reduce the strain on my right wrist, and vertical mouse.

I have coordination/proprioception problems, so I can't use a two-handed keyboard or a chordal keyboard, and I can't touch-type. All the standard ergonomic advice assumes being able to use a two-handed split keyboard and being able to touch-type. Also I can't use touch devices or use certain styli.

Dragon is supposed to work well with Windows, but it didn't work for me when I tried it with the Mac. I was writing and editing game rules and historical notes, so I often had to move from section to section, or check the sources, or work with tables. Dragon had good word recognition, but I still had to type in the occasional correction. Dragon would sometimes jump about and delete things. Apparently users are supposed to navigate by voice, and correct errors by voice, which didn't work in that version.

Enhanced Dictation didn't work for me either.

Anyway, because of the noise level, and because my brother is borrowing the microphone, I can't try these again right now.

[BookCat]

Have you considered other Mac compatible voice recognition software and buying another suitable microphone?
There are also things like TrewGrip, which this guy demonstrates about 3mins into this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Lhx5CDstY
but I imagine it's expensive and hard to use if you don't touch type.
So maybe stick with voice recognition.

[MarjaE]

Thanks.

I have a strobe sensitivity, so a lot of trouble with video.

I *haven't* been able to use voice recognition. I can't use two-handed keyboards, and can't touch-type, but from looking elsewhere online, Trewgrip looks like it would require both.

[LucyOne]

Have you tried the newest version of Dragon? It is getting better and better.

[MarjaE]

I haven't been able to use Dragon for Mac 5.0, partly because I live in a painfully noisy neighborhood, and partly because the accursed cursor keeps changing place and chopping up unrelated text.

I know this is still an unsolved issue in Dragon Professional 6.0.

[crich70]

Maybe you could dictate your prose into a tape recorder and have someone else type it up for you?

[MarjaE]

I don't know how to describe all the searching, checking the text, checking sources, entering data in the right place, etc.

I don't know how to fit that into a tape recorder.

I think Dragon might work for people who are just reading one continuous text and want that same text, but Dragon for Mac doesn't work for people who are checking things as they write, editing things that they wrote, outlining things and then filling in sections, creating tables, etc.

[maddz]

I got severe RSI some years back when I was using a standard keyboard with wrist rest and a Logitech marble mouse. I was doing a lot of copy/paste operations and the wrist rest put pressure on the nerve and the narrowness of the marble mouse made it worse. Like you, I don't touch type and can't use split or chordal keyboards. After an enforced 2 weeks off, my employers had to send me to their occupational health people. They ended up sending me to occupational therapy and on their recommendation sprang for a better operator's chair - I'd been using a contract chair.

I also tried various trackballs to replace the marble mouse because of the narrowness; I couldn't use a standard Logitech trackball because it wasn't ambidextrous, and tried the vertical trackballs as well. I ended up using one similar to my current Kensington Orbit. I also tried a wrist rest trackball.

The other problem was the standard chunky keyboard and wrist rest; they put my hands at too much of a vertical angle and pressure on the wrist. A split keyboard was not an answer because of not touch typing, although I found the horizontal angle better for me (fingertips pointing at each other not the monitor). After some research, I ended up with an ultra-slim A4 Tech natural-A keyboard and replaced the wrist rest with Fellowes forearm cradles. This set-up meant my hands and forearms were as flat as possible, supported on the desk, and my hands and fingertips pointed to each other like an inverted V and weren't parallel.

Unfortunately, when I came to replace the keyboard a couple of years ago when I had to transfer to a laptop because of changes to the VPN set-up, A4 Tech were no longer selling to the European market, let alone the UK market, and I ended up with a US layout keyboard. IT also tried me on a Microsoft curved keyboard but after one day of use I started getting RSI. Luckily, IT were able to obtain drivers for the keyboard.

Unfortunately, I've never found anything to replace the Fellowes cradles, and I believe they are no longer available.

At home, I tried Dragon with my Mac, and like you didn't find it satisfactory. Mind you, I was running a Power PC machine at the time... I couldn't use Dragon at work because the proprietory database I was working with didn't accept the voice input and I didn't do vast amounts of MS Word work; when not working in the database, I used Excel or Business Objects, Word got rarely used.

As far as possible, I replicated the office set-up at home. When I upgraded to my current iMac (about 10 years ago now), I found the standard Apple wired keyboard to be ergonomically similar to the A4 Tech so I'm happy with that. My main problem at home was getting a desk deep enough to rest my forearms on the desk to type.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by maddz

[...] I don't touch type and can't use split or chordal keyboards.[...]

I find this slightly strange. If you don't touch type then there would seem to be no reason why your hands should be kept in any fixed position (the usual cause of RSI); indeed, your ATech natural-A keyboard) should see pretty much the same difficulties as the more usual natural layout keyboard (except perhaps the slanting on either side) or a completely standard keyboard - when it comes to hunt-and-peck typing.

Putting aside what I do not understand, a truly split keyboard like Kinesis Freestyle could simulate what you had because it can be flat or tilted in various ways. (I linked to the Bluetooth Mac version, but they have several variations available.)

I used a Kinesis Freestyle for a few years and found it very good - but at that time they had no wireless versions so I ended up changing over to an MS Sculpt keyboard. I had trouble getting Kinesis in Australia (for a sane price) and purchased mine from the US via The Human Solution.

One of the annoying things about a fully split keyboard is having two pieces to move when you want to move your keyboard. But one of the advantages is that you can continually adjust the layout, and such avoidance of a fixed position can be a good thing for RSI. (Somewhere I actually saw a keyboard with built-in motors that constantly changed its positioning ... curious but it did not appeal.)

Originally Posted by maddz

[...] My main problem at home was getting a desk deep enough to rest my forearms on the desk to type.

Who recommended this to you? It seems contrary to everything I've ever read about ergonomically correct keyboard use. (Whenever I've been forced to type with my forearms resting on a surface I find it a great strain on my wrists and I get tired and sore very quickly.) If your problem is so bad now that you must constantly rest your forearms, then it seems you really should be trying to find a voice recognition solution.

[maddz]

Most of what I do work-wise is data-entry type tasks, and coding-type work in Business Objects and Excel. I rarely need to write long screeds; 2 page briefing notes are about my usual length (my longer prose is unintelligible to non-technical people so I was never given that kind of work).

So I'm often using my right hand to navigate and the left to enter data which involves a lot of copy/paste; this often involves 3 windows - for example, a list of bad gazetteer addresses in Excel, database window, browser window to find correct address data from various online sources. If working in Business Objects, I'm creating variables or setting up query conditions.

That means a split keyboard is not a good solution for me as I often want to enter numeric data with my left hand and I find a separate numeric keypad doesn't work very well. It's having the keyboard in different sections that throws me.

What I've found is I cannot have anything around or under my wrists when working - not only wrist rests but even watches or jewelry. Also, I can't have my hands in a different vertical plane to my forearms (I have to work like _ _ not _ /). So I have my forearms supported in the cradles, and there is sufficient height to have my fingertips resting on an ultra-thin keyboard with my wrists in free space, my chair is raised slightly and I use a foot rest.

I've tried vertical mice and raised cradles (the type that clamp to the desk) with my fingers drooping onto the keyboard but they're too high for my shoulders (arthritis) and I couldn't get sufficient play to move my hands to where they needed to be, and vertical mice are not ambidextrous (very rarely I need to switch hands for mouse work).

I think you have to try various options and see what works for you. We all have different ergonomic requirements - if I did a lot of Word work, I may well change my mind; but as I'm a data person not a word person the question doesn't arise.

[gmw]

maddz, I was not suggesting that the forearms should be angled. What I was suggesting is that you should avoid having them cradled or resting on anything - everything I've read, and my own experience, suggests this is bad. Chair arms can be present to rest on when not using the keyboard but should not take the weight of your arms while typing. See this image, it shows how the forearms are on the same plan as the hands but are not resting on anything.

I understand that data entry has different requirements to typing prose. Most of my work is involved in developing payroll solutions - LOTS of data entry. Okay, so I don't do most of it, but I do have to test all of it.

[maddz]

Unfortunately, not having my forearms raised makes things worse for me. I've tried. I think the problem is that I don't have good posture in the first place - I slump. I should say that I'm not actually putting weight on my forearms - the effect is to raise my hands to the level of the keyboard without putting strain on my shoulders.

I've been through ergonomic assessments and I actually find a lot of the recommended solutions are a lot more painful for me. My current set-up has been evolved through trial-and-error and I can now manage 14 10-hour working days in a fortnight in peak periods.

[meeera]

Can I ask about the touch device and stylus limitation, please? My first thought was a tablet with a Swype-type keyboard, either with hand or stylus.

My main suggestion is to persist with voice recognition, with a better microphone. It takes time and training, and yes a few corrections, which are much less damaging than sustained keyboarding. I find this easiest with a trackpad or large trackball; YMMV.

Physiotherapist and OT input? Bracing, treatment, ergonomic thoughts from someone who has examined you?

Going further outside the box, and probably cheaper than very complicated assistive tech like eye-tracking : dictate and send to a human transcriptionist.

[MarjaE]

"Can I ask about the touch device and stylus limitation, please?"

What do you want to ask?

I have coordination problems. I can't avoid accidental tapping and accidental gestures. And that's bad enough on its own, and worse when it triggers animation. I can't use a dynamic pencil grip. I can use a lateral quadrupod grip, if it isn't too short, and the tip isn't too slippery, and there aren't any awkwardly-positioned buttons. But that's hit-or-miss with styli.

I also have sensory problems. I can get gradual migraines from bright lights, or blinking cursors, and instant migraines from flashing lights, zoom animation, side-scrolling animation, jitter animation, or certain other types.

I am average height, 5'5"/165 cm. I have an appropriate 24" table, but can't find an appropriate chair. I use a vertical mouse, a mini keyboard, with the left side propped up, and a monitor, with the whole thing propped up on 3" of books.

I can confirm that it's possible to get rsi without touch-typing.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by MarjaE

"Can I ask about the touch device and stylus limitation, please?"

What do you want to ask?

I have coordination problems. [...]

Gotcha. As an example of why I was asking, some people think they can't use touch devices because capacitive touch screens don't respond properly to their fingertips - so there are a variety of reasons. And obviously the solutions are very different!