10-14-2019, 06:05 AM | #46 | ||
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Maybe it's just me (and a bunch of others ha ha ha), but the music and fiction back in the 60s/70s in particular, was wildly inventive. Much of it ended up being dross, but some of it was brilliant and unique ... out-of-this-world perhaps. The freedom or sense of freedom of the times I guess ... and drugs maybe. |
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10-14-2019, 06:10 AM | #47 |
cacoethes scribendi
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I don't think I've seen Glorianna.
My introduction to Moorcock were his Michael Kane stories - a sort of tribute to Edgar Rice Burroughs - and they were great fun. After that I found him very hit and miss. I agree that the Corum mostly worked. I liked some of the Elric saga, but too much of it reflected (how I've seen him describe) his writing method - same goes for Jerry Cornelius, Eternal Champion etc.. I did like The City in the Autumn Stars, and I thought the Dancers at the End of Time collection worked really well, quirky and different. I get the impression he is not a patient man, and I believe this shows up in his writing. Last edited by gmw; 10-14-2019 at 06:41 AM. Reason: typo |
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10-14-2019, 08:22 AM | #48 | |
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10-15-2019, 06:36 AM | #49 | |
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I also quite liked his novels, that I guess you would call Steam Punk these days ... the Bastable ones I think and some of the Von Bek stuff. Being a big Edgar Rice Burroughs fan, I liked the Michael Kane stories a lot too, and I recall Moorcock had some (editing or publishing ??) ties with Burroughs books early in his career. Likewise, I thought his Dancers at the End of Time series was quite good. I am guessing you read the tie-in book featuring Elric at the end of time. Yes, he does not suffer fools gladly or those perceived as such .... that's my impression anyway ... quite a judgmental man. |
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10-15-2019, 06:53 AM | #50 | |
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Indeed. It would be quite a boring world if we all felt the same way.
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I was well into his writing before I started any Jerry Cornelius, else I don't doubt I would have skipped his books. He was up and down and a bit of all over the place ... understandable if under the influence. I always thought he was a funny mix of anti-establishment and establishment, which I mostly got from his writing. Almost like a form of corruption. It did make for very interesting reading at times, and some appeal to the rebel inside many of us. P.S. I actually read Glorianna many years before I read Gormenghast, which is superior in every sense, but which Moorcock modeled his book after. In a way he was often a kind of experimental writer ... certainly earlier in his career. Last edited by Timboli; 10-15-2019 at 07:02 AM. |
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10-15-2019, 05:33 PM | #51 |
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I didn't know Moorcock was critical or judgmental of other authors.
I think the 60/70's was overall more accepting of experimental attitudes. Coppola said that Apocalypse Now would never be made today. He would never get funding. Sad. Hollywood seems to focus on reboots that are always inferior. New stuff does get through still, and I guess it always will, but I do believe it's gotten harder. Saying that, I never thought much of Moorcock, even as a young person who was really much more tolerant of writing than I am nowadays. The exception was that Stormbringer book, but it no longer appeals to me. I remember liking An Alien Heat. I tried reading it again, and I found it to be very good, but I found the plotting too languorous and gave up. Personally I think there are much better works of fantasy that are less recognized (The Sunset Warrior trilogy). Moorcock was certainly imaginative. I wouldn't be surprised if he experimented liberally with LSD. Last edited by Pajamaman; 10-15-2019 at 05:39 PM. |
10-15-2019, 09:18 PM | #52 | |
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10-15-2019, 10:56 PM | #53 | |
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10-16-2019, 05:40 AM | #54 | |||||
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And my view, is that you need that to get the truly inspirational stuff to occur, even though it may not work most of the time. And even though I have always been against drug taking, I fully recognize that it allowed some to go places with their mind and inventiveness, that they probably wouldn't have done otherwise ... certainly in music and writing. That said, I believe there are other less riskful way to achieve the same thing, so in no way do I think drugs are necessary. Quote:
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I did enjoy that trilogy by Eric Van Lustbader, and must read the later sequels some time ... I have them, have had them for ages. Alas I like too many authors and not enough hours in a life for reading. Last edited by Timboli; 10-16-2019 at 05:44 AM. |
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10-16-2019, 06:19 AM | #55 | |
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I'm not sure whether Tolkien perhaps criticized him first or maybe other writing in the same genre ... or I should say, similarly perceived genre .... Sword & Fantasy, which Lord Of The Rings usually got lumped with back then. I love Robert E. Howard's writings and Edgar Rice Burroughs', but unlike some I never felt you could or should compare them, and certainly not compare them to Tolkien. Tolkien of course, was often very dismissive of such comparisons, but alas often displayed a sense of superiority which no doubt rubbed others the wrong way. That was even evident with his good friend C.S. Lewis, another author I love the Sci Fantasy writings of. Tolkien and Moorcock really come from very different backgrounds, and I always thought it a mistake for one to criticize perceived failures or things lacking in the other. In many ways they are the product of their times and social class and life experience. Moorcock especially was a rising star in a very revolutionary period, and was all about expanding horizons, whereas I feel Tolkien was more about consolidating, even looking backward, and making something amazing from that. In a sense, Moorcock was more about shocking you, whereas Tolkien was more reserved and sticking to the more familiar, and showing the wonder without pushing you out of your comfort zone. I have always thought there was an equal place for both, for those with a progressive take on life. In some ways it is like comparing a father with a grandfather, in a later age of enlightenment, without realizing that progress is not always completely positive, and that sometimes good is lost with the bad, as in two steps forward and one back. This is especially so, when you look at human skills being lost due to machines. |
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10-16-2019, 06:43 AM | #56 | |
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I don't think brilliance can be measured by complexity. Just like you can't compare a great Pizza with a great Chinese banquet. Each can be equally rewarding and satisfying, depending how you feel and what you really want at the time. Many things are subjective. |
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10-16-2019, 07:06 AM | #57 | |
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To an extent, Tolkien was one of the last great Victoria age writers and was of the old fantasy genre with William Morris (The Well at World's End - 1896), E.R.R. Eddison (The Worm Ouroboros - 1922) and H. Rider Haggard (Eric Brighteyes - 1891, but most famous for She and King's Soloman's Mine). The Hobbit was published in 1937 and the LOTR was released in 1954-55). He famously labored long and hard over LOTR, taking almost 20 years to write it (if you only include the time period when he was actually working on it) Moorcock was of the experimental 60's and was one of the first of the anti-hero authors. I would tend to compare Moorcock and his Eternal Champion series much more to Karl Edward Wagner's Kane series in the early 70's. (which are favorites of mine and I think have aged better than the Elric books). |
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10-17-2019, 10:07 AM | #58 | |||
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Tolkien and many of that era, were quite perfectionist too with their writing, and their focus being very different to the newcomers of the 60s ... dare I say more literary (words & language), marked by Tolkien's participation in the Oxford Dictionary. Quote:
I have only read one or two (maybe 3) of Wagner's novels, long ago, one of those being a Conan one, which I enjoyed. He is one of the many many authors I have checked out over the years, and who I fully intended to read more of one day. Alas I have been unable to keep up with the huge number of authors I am already a big fan of, so it is looking less likely now. Last edited by Timboli; 10-17-2019 at 10:14 AM. |
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10-17-2019, 11:53 AM | #59 | |
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While Moorcock tended to stretch the Eternal Champion motif to most of his stories, I tend to think of it as the Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, von Beck and Erikose stories. I have all except the von Beck works, though I have read The War Hound and the World's Pain. You really should check out some of Wagner's Kane books. It's 3 novels and 3 collections of short stories. I prefer the original book covers, the ones that are now with the male model don't even remotely look like the book's description, which is a man who is around 6 foot tall, 300 lbs of muscle, red hair and brutish features. There were two omnibus collections, one with all the short stories, the other with all the novels, but they aren't available as ebooks. Last edited by pwalker8; 10-17-2019 at 11:56 AM. |
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10-19-2019, 01:33 PM | #60 | |
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Checking my records, I have 3 paperback Wagner novels. Echoes Of Valor Nightwinds Road Of Kings, Conan The With that last one having been read back in December 93. I also thought I had read 'Echoes Of Valor', but that would predate my current records. I never did do an extensive 'have I read it or not', when I first started my paper records. Sometimes in passing when I felt sure I had, I gave a book a tick for read, but other than that it was too much of a hard endeavor, going by the number I had even back then. I don't really have any records for 60s, 70s, 80s and start of the 90s. My current listing only goes back to September 92 ... that I backdated to by a few months from memory. My paper records went through a few phases, pretty basic handwritten in the beginning, in scrapbooks, then typed up, then onto computer print outs. For a good while now I have kept a bit more detail, and just purely files backed up to PCs and devices etc. I feel certain I have read at least one Kane story ... aside from Solomon Kane by REH ... possibly in some various authors collection. Last edited by Timboli; 10-19-2019 at 02:18 PM. |
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