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Old 10-14-2021, 07:25 PM   #46
Uncle Robin
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Uncle Robin: Thanks for the history of "selfless" etc -- I guess I misunderstood Kowal's article, and she avoided those words not because they were anachronistic, but because she made a choice to write in a language similar to Austen's.
That seems likely - I think Quoth's demonstration sentence showed that it is possible to create an anachronistic whole out of parts that aren't
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Old 10-16-2021, 08:02 AM   #47
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She has an author's note about a historical error she has made consciously: There's a minor plot point about a main character trying to establish domestic sugar production in Britain, using homegrown sugar beet. While this was done in continental Europe at the time the book was set, in reality this didn't happen in Britain until the 1920s.
This is a kind of anachronism I don't mind
This is the sort of thing that makes historical fiction a nightmare.
Forks: Poland (Likely Polish & Lithuanian Empire) and France argue about which invented them. But not used in England probably till Jacobean. No forks at Queen Elizabeth's banquets.
Tea & Coffee: Elizabethans knew of tea and coffee and may have imported them. Tea predates coffee, dating from about 300 AD. But the Portuguese didn't bring it to Europe till the 16th C. Also they are responsible for playing cards and Americas origin Chilli in Asia. Yemen had coffee from the 15th C. though it might earlier have originated in Ethiopia. Coffee shops first opened in England in the Jacobean period and later served tea. Russia imported tea via camel from Asia also from the 16th C.
Potatoes: Sweet and regular kinds are from the Americas. Oddly the Sweet Potato was first and renamed when the regular kind appeared, which unlike the Sweet Potato could be grown in Northern Europe.
Turkey: Came from Americas but bred much bigger in Norfolk and those taken back to North America by the Pilgrim Fathers. The first Thanksgiving turkeys and most subsequent American domestic stock thus derived from Norfolk England bred birds.

European repopulation and economic growth after the Plagues was fuelled by potatoes and also gold looted by the Spanish from South America.

Edit: Sweeteners.
Honey is obvious.
The European equivalent to North American Maple syrup, from prehistoric times (even in British Isles) is Birch Syrup. Now only in a few East European places. American Natives stewed beans in honey or maple syrup and this was adapted by European settlers in Boston as baked beans.
By the 10th Century sugar cane had spread from North East India to the Middle East and was exported to Europe, though the Greeks knew of sugar by the 4th C.
I think beets were used for sugar content even in England, not just France at the time of Napoleon, but became industrialised in France and had beet sugar had declined in Britain due to slave produced sugar by Britain in the West Indies. Beet sugar was totally uneconomic in England in the Regency Era. Europeans first grew sugar cane after taking the Canary Is. in the 15th C. Industrial Beet Sugar was produced from about 1785 in Prussia, but beets were known as a source of sugar long before that.
Turnip/swede, rutabaga, mangles etc are beets and a source of sugar as are carrots and parsnips. Hence can be mixed with fruit for preserves or malt or fruit juice to ferment alcohol.
The Middle East & North Africa also produced Date Honey, a syrup from the palm tree, not from pressing dates. India and other places had jaggery, a sugar processed from date palms.
Malt from barley & rye: Sprout, roast & crush.
Juice from various fruits, especially grapes.

Last edited by Quoth; 10-16-2021 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 10-16-2021, 08:40 AM   #48
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Edit: Sweeteners.
Honey is obvious.
What fascinates me about honey is how OLD names for it are in many IE languages: English "mead" and Hindi's "madhu" (as in "madhumakki" - honey fly, bee) still showing their PIE roots loud and proud, millennia later
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Old 10-16-2021, 08:58 AM   #49
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What fascinates me about honey is how OLD names for it are in many IE languages: English "mead" and Hindi's "madhu" (as in "madhumakki" - honey fly, bee) still showing their PIE roots loud and proud, millennia later
Many old Irish / Celtic words and Hindi have common roots. Even names such as Síle (pronounced and transliterated as Sheila and variations from Irish)
Meall is old Irish for "of honey", the Fabled Celtic Otherworld of Magh Meall is Plain of Honey, though in modern Irish the prefix Moy- in a place name means plain. Modern Irish for honey is mil.
honey sauce: anlann meala
a jar of honey: próca meala [OR] crúsca meala

Irish words modify in the genative or related cases. Thus "of honey" now = meala [or] mheala
a spoon of honey: spúnóg mheala [Literally a small spoon as óg (óige) means lesser, young, youth or little depending on context.] [OR] lán spúnóige de mhil
An h added after the first letter can mean "of".

Last edited by Quoth; 10-16-2021 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 10-16-2021, 09:00 AM   #50
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Many old Irish / Celtic words and Hindi have common roots. Even names such as Síle (pronounced and transliterated as Sheila and variations from Irish)
~49% of the world's population speak a language from the same family. That's a very big slice of PIE.
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