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Old 09-04-2012, 06:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
Care to provide some? Your original link didn't have any such info.
Photons are photons, whether they are generated by a backlight or by a reading light reflected from a screen.
The issues are absolute brightness, and relative brightness of the screen compared to background lighting. Both of those issues would also occur with a frontlit screen.
My original link gave an article. Chase it from there.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:22 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DarkScribe View Post
The issue that I am discussing is that unless ePaper has a massive improvement, not just an improvement that cannot be noticed by the average reader, it is not likely to start overnight queues in the street the night before release.
I don't think anything eInk will or could release will cause overnight queues in the street.
But there are clearly improvements to be made.
Better contrast and reduced screen-flash would be obvious ones.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by DarkScribe View Post
My original link gave an article. Chase it from there.
No. You made the claim.
There are no 'eInk photons' or 'LCD photons'.
Light is light.
Too much of it is bad.
Too much of it compared to the background level of light is bad.
Shining a torch on an eInk screen will cause the same effect as an LCD screen.
The article you linked to said nothing about this.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:16 AM   #34
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in other news, paper technology has not been upgraded for centuries! Consumers don't want to be left out of the compulsory update cycle as some weenie Android user! They demand smoother paper pages with better contrast in their next novel or else they are giving their hard-earned money to Apple's yearly shiny retina tablet instead.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:24 AM   #35
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in other news, paper technology has not been upgraded for centuries! Consumers don't want to be left out of the compulsory update cycle as some weenie Android user! They demand smoother paper pages with better contrast in their next novel or else they are giving their hard-earned money to Apple's yearly shiny retina tablet instead.
Sarcasm aside, paper technology has changed in the last centuries.
Modern magazines and comics, for example, are printed on much smoother stock than previously.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:33 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
No. You made the claim.
There are no 'eInk photons' or 'LCD photons'.
Light is light.
Too much of it is bad.
Too much of it compared to the background level of light is bad.
Shining a torch on an eInk screen will cause the same effect as an LCD screen.
The article you linked to said nothing about this.
Take it up with the scientists involved in the research.

No one says that there are different forms of light photons, but there are different light frequencies, and different levels of transmission with very, very different effects on the human body. Some of the research claims that there are higher levels of UV light (A,B,&C) in light excited by an LCD or a LED screen than in light emitted from an incandescent or FL/CFL source. I don't know just how much effect this has, but I am not as dismissive of research as you appear to be.

If all that is too hard for you to grasp then I am afraid that I can't help. If you are truly interested in answers but not willing to do the research then I am afraid that I cannot help. If you cannot understand the science then I cannot help. If you are unwilling to accept that the research is valid then I cannot help.

Not very helpful - am I?
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:52 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
I don't think anything eInk will or could release will cause overnight queues in the street.
But there are clearly improvements to be made.
Better contrast and reduced screen-flash would be obvious ones.
Screen flash? I haven't experienced screen flash since the first versions of Sony and Kindle.

I have mentioned several times that I do not want or need better contrast, but I accept that many people would. It is like printing in darkroom days - some photographers use high contrast film, paper and technique, while others (often award winning) prefered a softer contrast.

The issue from the point of view of the manufacturers is how much of the market will really value new standards enough to dump what they have and upgrade. Some people will love everything new - just because it is new and for little other reason, but many, if they cant see a dramatic difference in a new screen will stick to what they have. I really don't believe that eReaders are like iPhones, most of the the people who own them don't have an obsession with "State of the Art". Look how many were calling for a colour eInk screen, yet when they released one, almost no one bought them.

There will be a steady increase in quality and functionality with eReaders, but to try to equate them to tablets with their annual high visibility model upgrades not realistic. The eInk Corporation hasn't gone on vacation, they are still fully involved in R&D but many of the changes over the next few years are unlikely to impress those who feed their ego rather than their needs with upgrades. You know the type, those who insist on saying in everyday speech "I have an iPhone 4s" rather than just saying "I have an iPhone".
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:54 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Namekuseijin View Post
in other news, paper technology has not been upgraded for centuries! Consumers don't want to be left out of the compulsory update cycle as some weenie Android user! They demand smoother paper pages with better contrast in their next novel or else they are giving their hard-earned money to Apple's yearly shiny retina tablet instead.
Not at all true. Recycled paper is relatively new. Clay papers for instance, cloth papers, lots of innovation even in the past decade or two. Ask any printer.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:58 AM   #39
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Agreed

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I want pure black letters on a pure white screen with no reflections.

I can take a slight back glow like a light through the translucence whiteness for reading in the dark or dim light.
I totally agree. There is no reason why E Ink screens haven't at least tried to take care of the dark grey background issue.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:00 AM   #40
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No Apples or Oranges here

DarkScribe, I am not comparing apples to oranges when I say that tablet popularity threatens the eReader market. The plunge in eReader sales has been well documented, and while you and I may know the major difference between E Ink and LCD, new consumers and disgruntled E Ink users can easily be persuaded to try out a retina display. If E Ink wants to stay viable in a highly competitive market, they need to upgrade their screen technology.

If you love the old Pearl screens, get on eBay and buy five or six old Kindles. You will use them for the rest of your life. That's fine for you, but I'm hoping for something better.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:34 AM   #41
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DarkScribe, I am not comparing apples to oranges when I say that tablet popularity threatens the eReader market. The plunge in eReader sales has been well documented, and while you and I may know the major difference between E Ink and LCD, new consumers and disgruntled E Ink users can easily be persuaded to try out a retina display. If E Ink wants to stay viable in a highly competitive market, they need to upgrade their screen technology.

If you love the old Pearl screens, get on eBay and buy five or six old Kindles. You will use them for the rest of your life. That's fine for you, but I'm hoping for something better.
I think that one problem is defining the market. The core of the market nowadays is comprised of people who have been keen readers for most of their lives, often well over forty. Initially it was a more youthful demographic - techno buffs, students, writers etc. The market has shifted, in fact I don't know anyone in my own age group (mid fifties) who doesn't own one - regardless of their gender and occupation. Even my in-laws use them. The market in the sense of new purchasers has definitely plateaued. The market as far as continuing interest and purchase of eBooks is booming. It is like colour TV, the first couple of years the market was chaotic. It plateaued but not because of lack of interest, simply because it was saturated. Everyone who could afford one already had one. They wouldn't upgrade until their old one failed.

The market for eReaders has done the same thing. It will not die, they will become a standard possession like a phone or a computer. All that has happened is that the boom is over, it is NOT a result of being usurped by tablets. As with a TV, most people are not hanging out for a new release, they will keep the one they have until they actually NEED to get a new one. I am looking at the responses and attitudes of "most people", while you seem to favouring the "techno-buff" response. Most people who I know well regard their eReader in the same manner as they regard a home appliance. Useful, valued, appreciated, they wouldn't like to be without it, but like any other appliance unless it fails they are unlikely to to upgrade. The same demographic who doesn't upgrade their phone until they either change carrier or it fails to work is at the core of eReader ownership.

By the way, why the recent interest in dual screens from tablet manufacturers if they are winning this imaginary war of yours? If people are truly happy to read on a high res LCD screen, why bother with an ePaper screen on the same device? You see, even the tablet manufacturers don't think that they are winning. Once they solve the bulk and weight problems that is a trend that should be popular. I wouldn't mind an iPad that I could flip over to reveal an eInk screen.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:02 AM   #42
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I know it's not necessarily a large market, but I'm one who will take all the sharp resolution and contrast I can get on an e-ink screen. My vision is poor, and slowly getting worse. In a few years most likely I wouldn't be able to read a paperback at all. But with e-ink, adjustable fonts, sharp resolution, and some contrast, I can make up for that and still read comfortably.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:08 AM   #43
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I know it's not necessarily a large market, but I'm one who will take all the sharp resolution and contrast I can get on an e-ink screen. My vision is poor, and slowly getting worse. In a few years most likely I wouldn't be able to read a paperback at all. But with e-ink, adjustable fonts, sharp resolution, and some contrast, I can make up for that and still read comfortably.
Yes, you are an ideal candidate for high contrast and scalable fonts. One day I might also have such problems - my wife already uses a larger font than I do. Luckily my eyesight is good, I have no difficulty with small fonts. I am responding to this on a iPhone using TapaTalk and have no problem other than having to turn the screen brightness down to thirty percent.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:43 AM   #44
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I don't believe the argument that e-reader markets are saturated already. This may be true in markets like the US and Australia, yet even in Germany - one the biggest book markets globally - the e-book market is still in a rather early stage.
Additionally, there are substantial markets like Latin Amerika that haven't been really developed yet.
Yet e-ink reader are possibly endangered by cheap tablets flooding these markets before e-ink readers have even gained any foothold.

For the saturated markets product innovations are required to attract existing owners of e-book readers to upgrade. Instead we are rather seeing a reduced range of options. All the major readers are quite similar now.
We aren't even seeing 5" and 7" readers any more.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:35 PM   #45
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I don't believe the argument that e-reader markets are saturated already. This may be true in markets like the US and Australia, yet even in Germany - one the biggest book markets globally - the e-book market is still in a rather early stage.
Additionally, there are substantial markets like Latin Amerika that haven't been really developed yet.
Yet e-ink reader are possibly endangered by cheap tablets flooding these markets before e-ink readers have even gained any foothold.

For the saturated markets product innovations are required to attract existing owners of e-book readers to upgrade. Instead we are rather seeing a reduced range of options. All the major readers are quite similar now.
We aren't even seeing 5" and 7" readers any more.
You might not believe it but the retail companies who are selling them do as they are who are claiming that the market has peaked. For three years they were one of the most popular Christmas presents, then last year they dropped back slightly. The market has not evaporated, it is just the the boom has ended. It will not die unless there is a sudden upsurge in the popularity of printed media coupled with a major reduction in cost - something that is not very likely.

As for cheap tablets, as they are not the same thing I can't see them having any lasting effect on the eReader market. Saying that they do is like saying that people will stop buying electric drills because a range of cheap Chinese power saws has been released. They are both tools and each has its purpose; one cannot replace the other. Cheap tablets might even aid eReader sales when the people who buy them discover that they don't make very good eReaders.

A tremendous number of people who buy tablets load something like a Kindle app onto them and start reading. Many then complain of sore eyes, headaches etc., as even though they can browse on a computer screen all day, when reading for several hours straight, their eyes are effected. Why else would so many who already own a tablet go out an buy a dedicated eReader? I don't know of anyone, family, friends, or those who I work with, sail with, socialise with who only own one device; they all have both a tablet and an eReader.
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