iLiad Community iPDF - Discussion - Page 4

nkelle · 11-04-2007, 05:40 PM

Hi,
I replaced the ipdf-file in /usr/bin via emel2FM and use now Rincewinds with a size of 99.168, it opens a newspaper-pdf of 8 MB (normally zoomable) in scribble-mode, press and hold the pen produces the LED-lightning but - snif - none of the described gestures work.
Before Rincewinds ipdf i used the original one vom irex..

Somebody has a hint for me?

greets
nkelle

rincewind · 11-05-2007, 05:03 PM

Hm, that sounds strange... Do you write quite straight lines and approximate 90% angles? If you get the LED on, you are drawing gestures... If you draw them very small, try making them bigger. Size shouldn't matter much, but each line has to be more than 10 pixels in one direction.

I'm thinking of some way to give feedback as to whether a gesture was recognized or not, but the slow eink makes it difficult to not "get in the way" of efficient operation.

Try drawing larger, and try to make the lines pretty even and at 90% angles - and tell me if you get it working! :-)

/R

daudi · 11-05-2007, 05:46 PM

I wonder if a "training" PDF would be helpful, a single page with an example of each gesture followed by a short explanation of what it does. If someone follows the example gesture exactly and doesn't get the correct response then there is something wrong.

It might even be possible to include some examples of what won't work (too small, wrong angles, etc.).

jharker · 11-05-2007, 06:24 PM

It does seem to me that if we have to make a manual, then the gestures are probably not intuitive enough.

However, at the moment it's just cool that we have gestures at all, thanks to Rincewind. I expect that the interpreter will get more subtle, accurate, and intuitive in subsequent versions!

Matt · 11-06-2007, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

I guess many people will agree that's more useful word highlighting than scribbling in a text pdf. Would be that possible? I think it would be a very nice feature to include.
By the way, thank you very much to everybody, community has speed up things dramaticly, Irex improvements to iLiad have been scarce since the beginning (from my customer point of view).
Keep the good work!

I would love to be able to select text with the pen and copy it to the manifest (or other text file) along with the page number. I would also like to be able to scribble in the margins. A combination of these two functions would be perfect - I highlight text, and briefly note why in my scribble. I then integrate the manifest text notes into zotero (or bibtext or whatever), alongside the pdf in which I have merged the scribble. If I can't remember why I selected that particular section of text, I can go back through the PDF, using the page number of the selected notes to guide me.

Matt · 11-06-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind

Hi all,

here is a binary "pre-release" of IPDF with both fullscreen and gestures. Just in case anyone wants to test gestures without loosing the precious fullscreen mode. :-) Also, applying both patches does require some manual interaction as they put code in the same place...

/R

I've installed this version of the iPDF and the gestures work great (haven't tried them all though.) I really like the ability to draw a bounding box around the text and have it zoom in. However, I'm having trouble getting the toolbar to toggle back on (e.g. go out of full screen mode.) In the previous fullscreen/bookmarks patch that I used, clicking and briefly holding the 'up arrow' toggled it on and off. Now, when I hit the up arrow, the LED begins to blink, but the toolbar never appears. If I hit either of the arrows or the center button, the led stops blinking and the screen refreshes, but still no toolbar.

It's great fun playing around with this thing! It's almost 2:30 and I still haven't done any work!

thanks rincewind, for this patch.

best,

Matt

rincewind · 11-06-2007, 06:03 PM

The fullscreen patch I used was the "official" one from the iRex forum. It's still jharker's excellent patch, but you must now press the "back" button (the one all the way at the top of the iLiad) - sort of "go back" to non-fullscreen.

Great to hear that the gestures seems to work for some at least. :-) I actually didn't ever adjust the core-implementation (that I performed during a conference), as I have never managed to mis-draw any gestures. If anyone are bothered, or have ideas of how to improve the implementation, please feel free to tinker. :-)

It works now by creating a box 10 pixels to each side of the pen point. When the pen leaves the box, the direction is noticed (only left-right-up-down for now), and a new box is created. When the direction changes, it is added to the gesture, so you don't get "right-right-right-right-down". :-) Should allow us to scribble as large gestures as we find useful. :-)

/R

nekokami · 11-11-2007, 10:18 AM

There's been an ongoing discussion about how to reference ebooks in scholarly works. Many people think that we may end up going by paragraph number, since page number may vary so much between editions. Would it be possible to put a tool in ipdf that would allow the user to tap an icon, then tap a paragraph to get a popup with the paragraph index number (on text-based PDFs)? Or a gesture would be fine.

narve · 11-11-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

There's been an ongoing discussion about how to reference ebooks in scholarly works. Many people think that we may end up going by paragraph number, since page number may vary so much between editions. Would it be possible to put a tool in ipdf that would allow the user to tap an icon, then tap a paragraph to get a popup with the paragraph index number (on text-based PDFs)? Or a gesture would be fine.

Wouldn't it be easier if scholary works just used numbered multi-level paragraphs, like "§2.3.1 Other options"? Then it would be visible without any hassle. Lots of authors already use that. The others don't deserve to be referenced

Besides, this is already a problem with paper editions; you have to refer to page number on a specific edition, since the layout/paper size might vary. Mighty annoying if you have another edition and have to guess which page they mean.

nekokami · 11-12-2007, 10:33 AM

Rincewind, I just had a thought: have you considered implementing the Graffiti input method as gestures? Or something similar? There is no handwriting recognition for Linux, as far as I've been able to determine. If you've got a general algorithm that could provide that, or at least a step towards it, you might be on your way to being extremely popular, and not just for iLiad users.

tirsales · 11-12-2007, 11:13 AM

Or something like Quikwrite - already written in Java, perhaps easier to transport?
It needs some learning though ...

http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/demos/Quikwrite2.html

daudi · 11-12-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

Rincewind, I just had a thought: have you considered implementing the Graffiti input method as gestures? Or something similar? There is no handwriting recognition for Linux, as far as I've been able to determine. If you've got a general algorithm that could provide that, or at least a step towards it, you might be on your way to being extremely popular, and not just for iLiad users.

http://risujin.org/cellwriter/

This is hand-writing recognition for linux. I have not tried it, just happened to read about it the other day. It uses a specific entry panel, like the current hand writing input on the iliad, but it also has a way of training it which the iliad does not, AFAICT. I wonder if the guts of this could provide the general algorithm?

rincewind · 11-12-2007, 01:40 PM

jharker, how is the "community release" coming along? Have you heard anything more from iRex in regards to SVN access? Should we host a repository ourselves? I have got a linux box (slow, but with plenty of bandwidth), if iRex is reluctant or slow. I also guess we could have a bug tracking thing going (I could host that one too), just to get things in place.

Any thoughts? Should we register a name for it? :-) I guess that between iRex creating the closed source "mother of all viewers", and ipdf really needing a real fix in the structure of the code, it is getting tempting to simply do a fork and start on our own...

/R

rincewind · 11-12-2007, 01:58 PM

When it comes to handwriting recognition, I really believe that it is far too inefficient yet. I've tried several ones. The Ipaq (running windows mobile), is not that bad (when writing english), but it is still horrible. The thing is that there tends to be a lot of bad matches, combined with a slow writing speed. The "cellwriter" seems to be slow, as you must type every letter by itself, and there is only a small space to write. Also, the iLiad is so slow to update the display, that you'll not be aware of any errors for seconds after writing them.

Another issue is that the recognition is always at the bottom of the screen, which means that you're hand is not over the text, but also that you have horribly little support for the hand.

So I'll keep writing my shaky hand as scribbles for a long time.

Oh, and after two years with a Palm III, I still was utterly useless with Graffiti, so I'm not implementing that. :-) I also tried Familiar Linux on the iPaq, both the built in QT one, and "Rosetta" (with learning), and they worked out really horrible. My last experiment was with the Linux based Nokia 770, and even though it sort of worked, I could type on the on-screen keyboard 10 times faster.

Anyone else actually tried handwriting recognition software? I hear the post-processing one that iRex sells is supposedly quite ok, but that is run afterwards, and not real-time. Might be more sensible though. They have a free demo out I believe.

/R

daudi · 11-12-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind

[...] Anyone else actually tried handwriting recognition software? I hear the post-processing one that iRex sells is supposedly quite ok, but that is run afterwards, and not real-time. Might be more sensible though. They have a free demo out I believe.

/R

I tried the free demo once, without training it and I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked. I haven't tried it since ... I need some spare time to play and have none these days.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
hello community	jarrj	Introduce Yourself	6	08-28-2010 06:20 PM
Hello to our community!	fooziex	Introduce Yourself	8	05-21-2010 02:30 PM
Hello to the community!	oldgollum	Introduce Yourself	4	09-05-2008 01:50 PM
Hi to the community	Vauh	Introduce Yourself	2	12-23-2007 03:35 PM
iLiad Community iPDF - Patch submissions	jharker	iRex Developer's Corner	2	11-02-2007 04:46 AM

11-04-2007, 05:40 PM	#46
nkelle Trainee bricked one Iliad Posts: 18 Karma: 25 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Germany, near Mönchengladbach Device: iRex iliad ER0100 soft 2.12	Hi, I replaced the ipdf-file in /usr/bin via emel2FM and use now Rincewinds with a size of 99.168, it opens a newspaper-pdf of 8 MB (normally zoomable) in scribble-mode, press and hold the pen produces the LED-lightning but - snif - none of the described gestures work. Before Rincewinds ipdf i used the original one vom irex.. Somebody has a hint for me? greets nkelle

11-05-2007, 05:03 PM	#47
rincewind Connoisseur Posts: 58 Karma: 479 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: iLiad	Hm, that sounds strange... Do you write quite straight lines and approximate 90% angles? If you get the LED on, you are drawing gestures... If you draw them very small, try making them bigger. Size shouldn't matter much, but each line has to be more than 10 pixels in one direction. I'm thinking of some way to give feedback as to whether a gesture was recognized or not, but the slow eink makes it difficult to not "get in the way" of efficient operation. Try drawing larger, and try to make the lines pretty even and at 90% angles - and tell me if you get it working! :-) /R

11-05-2007, 05:46 PM	#48
daudi Addict Posts: 281 Karma: 904 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kent, UK Device: iRex iLiad, Psion 5MX, nokia n800	I wonder if a "training" PDF would be helpful, a single page with an example of each gesture followed by a short explanation of what it does. If someone follows the example gesture exactly and doesn't get the correct response then there is something wrong. It might even be possible to include some examples of what won't work (too small, wrong angles, etc.).

11-05-2007, 06:24 PM	#49
jharker Developer Posts: 345 Karma: 3473 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Device: iRex iLiad v1, Blackberry Tour, Kindle DX, iPad.	It does seem to me that if we have to make a manual, then the gestures are probably not intuitive enough. However, at the moment it's just cool that we have gestures at all, thanks to Rincewind. I expect that the interpreter will get more subtle, accurate, and intuitive in subsequent versions!

11-06-2007, 06:03 PM	#52
rincewind Connoisseur Posts: 58 Karma: 479 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: iLiad	The fullscreen patch I used was the "official" one from the iRex forum. It's still jharker's excellent patch, but you must now press the "back" button (the one all the way at the top of the iLiad) - sort of "go back" to non-fullscreen. Great to hear that the gestures seems to work for some at least. :-) I actually didn't ever adjust the core-implementation (that I performed during a conference), as I have never managed to mis-draw any gestures. If anyone are bothered, or have ideas of how to improve the implementation, please feel free to tinker. :-) It works now by creating a box 10 pixels to each side of the pen point. When the pen leaves the box, the direction is noticed (only left-right-up-down for now), and a new box is created. When the direction changes, it is added to the gesture, so you don't get "right-right-right-right-down". :-) Should allow us to scribble as large gestures as we find useful. :-) /R

11-11-2007, 10:18 AM	#53
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	There's been an ongoing discussion about how to reference ebooks in scholarly works. Many people think that we may end up going by paragraph number, since page number may vary so much between editions. Would it be possible to put a tool in ipdf that would allow the user to tap an icon, then tap a paragraph to get a popup with the paragraph index number (on text-based PDFs)? Or a gesture would be fine.

11-12-2007, 10:33 AM	#55
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Rincewind, I just had a thought: have you considered implementing the Graffiti input method as gestures? Or something similar? There is no handwriting recognition for Linux, as far as I've been able to determine. If you've got a general algorithm that could provide that, or at least a step towards it, you might be on your way to being extremely popular, and not just for iLiad users.

11-12-2007, 11:13 AM	#56
tirsales MIA ... but returning som Posts: 1,600 Karma: 511342 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Germany Device: PRS-505 and Really not owning a PRS-700	Or something like Quikwrite - already written in Java, perhaps easier to transport? It needs some learning though ... http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/demos/Quikwrite2.html

11-12-2007, 01:40 PM	#58
rincewind Connoisseur Posts: 58 Karma: 479 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: iLiad	jharker, how is the "community release" coming along? Have you heard anything more from iRex in regards to SVN access? Should we host a repository ourselves? I have got a linux box (slow, but with plenty of bandwidth), if iRex is reluctant or slow. I also guess we could have a bug tracking thing going (I could host that one too), just to get things in place. Any thoughts? Should we register a name for it? :-) I guess that between iRex creating the closed source "mother of all viewers", and ipdf really needing a real fix in the structure of the code, it is getting tempting to simply do a fork and start on our own... /R

11-12-2007, 01:58 PM	#59
rincewind Connoisseur Posts: 58 Karma: 479 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: iLiad	When it comes to handwriting recognition, I really believe that it is far too inefficient yet. I've tried several ones. The Ipaq (running windows mobile), is not that bad (when writing english), but it is still horrible. The thing is that there tends to be a lot of bad matches, combined with a slow writing speed. The "cellwriter" seems to be slow, as you must type every letter by itself, and there is only a small space to write. Also, the iLiad is so slow to update the display, that you'll not be aware of any errors for seconds after writing them. Another issue is that the recognition is always at the bottom of the screen, which means that you're hand is not over the text, but also that you have horribly little support for the hand. So I'll keep writing my shaky hand as scribbles for a long time. Oh, and after two years with a Palm III, I still was utterly useless with Graffiti, so I'm not implementing that. :-) I also tried Familiar Linux on the iPaq, both the built in QT one, and "Rosetta" (with learning), and they worked out really horrible. My last experiment was with the Linux based Nokia 770, and even though it sort of worked, I could type on the on-screen keyboard 10 times faster. Anyone else actually tried handwriting recognition software? I hear the post-processing one that iRex sells is supposedly quite ok, but that is run afterwards, and not real-time. Might be more sensible though. They have a free demo out I believe. /R

Advert

Advert