Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-28-2007, 08:31 AM   #76
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
I entirely agree with you, Liviu - we all break laws, inadvertantly or otherwise, every day of our lives. I was simply disagreeing with Jon's assertion that "breaking DRM doesn't make us criminals". Personally I think it's a ridiculous law, and I'm very glad that we don't have such a law in my own country, but nonetheless, it is the law in the US at present.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 08:44 AM   #77
astra
The Introvert
astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
astra's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,307
Karma: 1000077497
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650 & 505 & 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
I entirely agree with you, Liviu - we all break laws, inadvertantly or otherwise, every day of our lives. I was simply disagreeing with Jon's assertion that "breaking DRM doesn't make us criminals". Personally I think it's a ridiculous law, and I'm very glad that we don't have such a law in my own country, but nonetheless, it is the law in the US at present.


Do you mean it is OK to crack DRM in the UK?
astra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 08:49 AM   #78
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Correct. The EU Copyright Directive (EUCD) makes the sale of "devices" which remove DRM illegal (eg devices which bypass "Macrovision" copy protection on video tapes or DVDs), but that doesn't apply to software. The EUCD allows a rights holder to apply to the civil courts to take action against someone removing DRM, but it's a "civil" offence, not a criminal one, unlike the DCMA in the US, which imposes specific criminal penalties for DRM removal.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 08:51 AM   #79
astra
The Introvert
astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.astra ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
astra's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,307
Karma: 1000077497
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650 & 505 & 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
There's no specific law against it, to the best of my knowledge. Obviously, though, it's illegal to redistribute copyrighted material, but I believe that removing DRM for personal use would be legal here.
I see. Thanks. I didn't know.
astra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 08:59 AM   #80
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 73,645
Karma: 127838196
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Forgive me for saying so, Jon, but in the United States, if you break DRM you are a criminal, and you don't even have the excuse with the MobiPocket format that the "disability exemption" to the DCMA applies - the MobiPocket Reader has no features such as reading aloud which are disabled by DRM.

One may argue that the DCMA is a bad law, but until and unless it is overturned by the courts, it is the law, and if you break it you are committing a crime.
DMCA is an affront to our rights. I am not going to let some stupid law cause me to have to spend money that I may not have to spend on something I've already spent money on. I do believe that if this went to court, that fair use would win out.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 09:02 AM   #81
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
DMCA is an affront to our rights. I am not going to let some stupid law cause me to have to spend money that I may not have to spend on something I've already spent money on. I do believe that if this went to court, that fair use would win out.
Are you saying that nobody has ever been prosecuted for removing DRM under the DCMA?
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 10:24 AM   #82
Xenophon
curmudgeon
Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Xenophon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,481
Karma: 5748190
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Redwood City, CA USA
Device: Kobo Aura HD, (ex)nook, (ex)PRS-700, (ex)PRS-500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Forgive me for saying so, Jon, but in the United States, if you break DRM you are a criminal, and you don't even have the excuse with the MobiPocket format that the "disability exemption" to the DCMA applies - the MobiPocket Reader has no features such as reading aloud which are disabled by DRM.

One may argue that the DCMA is a bad law, but until and unless it is overturned by the courts, it is the law, and if you break it you are committing a crime.
Actually, the law is a little more subtle than that. The act of breaking the DRM is not illegal. They left that up to the traditional fair-use defenses and exemptions.

Instead, they made it illegal to
  • Produce DRM-breaking tools
  • Tell others how to break DRM, or where to get DRM-breaking tools
  • Reverse-engineer or otherwise do the work of figuring out how to break the DRM
Actually doing the breaking of the DRM is no different from any previous format-shifting with respect to legality. It's just that you have to somehow manage it without violating the things that are illegal.

You'll note, for example, that if someone not covered by the DMCA (a non-US citizen not resident in or located in the US, for example) produces DRM breaking tools, they haven't violated US law. No jurisdiction. And if I somehow (psychically, perhaps) figure out how to get those tools, and use them, I'm still in the same old never-really-tested-in-court but probably OK grey-zone as before.

On the other hand if I tell someone where to get those very same tools, or do any work on those tools, or do the reverse engineering needed to build those tools in the first place... Well, since I'm a US citizen and I reside in the US any of those acts would be illegal under the DMCA. And it would be a felony with major major penalties, too. Using the tools, on the other hand, doesn't cause any DMCA violation at all. That's a plain old copyright question, where the answer is "it depends."

I really hope (and pray ) that we get some sanity in this area -- the current legal situation is totally hosed. And I wish a big fat for the bozos who voted the DMCA into law in the first place.
Xenophon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 10:28 AM   #83
Xenophon
curmudgeon
Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Xenophon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Xenophon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,481
Karma: 5748190
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Redwood City, CA USA
Device: Kobo Aura HD, (ex)nook, (ex)PRS-700, (ex)PRS-500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Are you saying that nobody has ever been prosecuted for removing DRM under the DCMA?
Yup. That's right. Because removing the DRM is not what's illegal.

Conversely, people have been prosecuted for producing DRM-removing tools (software as well as hardware). The only case I know of to date was eventually dumped for lack of jurisdiction (the Russian who provided the crack for Adobe's Secure PDF), but there may be others.

So far, the DMCA seems to have been used mostly for its chilling effect. It hasn't really been tested in court. That said, the kind of folks who'd go after you have much much deeper pockets than you do. I certainly wouldn't want to be the test case!
Xenophon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 12:24 PM   #84
rlauzon
Wizard
rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.
 
rlauzon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,018
Karma: 67827
Join Date: Jan 2005
Device: PocketBook Era
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Forgive me for saying so, Jon, but in the United States, if you break DRM you are a criminal
You seem to be ignorant of the law. Breaking DRM is not illegal in the U.S.

The DMCA only prohibits you from figuring out how to break DRM and then publishing (in either code or written word) how it was done.

If you want to crack the DRM on your eBooks, you are free do do so. You just can't tell anyone how you did it.

It's perfectly legal for me to download some software to rip my DVDs to play on my portable video player. It's not legal for me to distribute such software.
rlauzon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 12:28 PM   #85
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Thank you for the clarification.

Can I just make sure that I understand correctly: anyone in the United States who says "you can remove DRM from a MobiPocket book with Aenea's program" is breaking the law, right?
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 12:40 PM   #86
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 73,645
Karma: 127838196
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Thank you for the clarification.

Can I just make sure that I understand correctly: anyone in the United States who says "you can remove DRM from a MobiPocket book with Aenea's program" is breaking the law, right?
Very possibly we are. But, my morals say it's ok.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 12:51 PM   #87
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
But is MobileRead OK. We are on a server located in the United States - could the site be taken down for breaking US law?
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 01:05 PM   #88
Steven Lyle Jordan
Grand Sorcerer
Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lyle Jordan's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,478
Karma: 5171130
Join Date: Jan 2006
Device: none
We should be clear on this: In the U.S. the only cases that have been brought to court have been those where someone publicly released DRM-cracking information, and those where someone has used a DRM cracker and subsequently made available DRM-cracked files (like music) at reduced or no price. The only thing that has led to court cases so far has been doing something that can potentially or has been demonstrated to cost another property owner to lose money.

This is why no one in the U.S. who cracks DRM, just so they can archive their own copies of a file, has to fear prosecution for it. However, if somehow one of their cracked files got out into the public, they could be held liable to the full extent of the law.
Steven Lyle Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2007, 01:22 PM   #89
NatCh
Gizmologist
NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NatCh's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,615
Karma: 929550
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3
I think HarryT's point and question is that if MobileRead (which is U.S. Hosted) distributes or whatever else is illegal under the DMCA, doesn't that open the site up to some sort of legal action?

Did I interpret that about right, HarryT?
NatCh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2007, 02:53 AM   #90
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by NatCh View Post
I think HarryT's point and question is that if MobileRead (which is U.S. Hosted) distributes or whatever else is illegal under the DMCA, doesn't that open the site up to some sort of legal action?

Did I interpret that about right, HarryT?
What I meant was that, if it's illegal in the US to provide someone with information about how to remove DRM, and someone does that on this site, which is hosted in the US, would that leave the site liable to legal action?
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"CLOUDED RAINBOW" - a twist of Michael Douglas' "Falling Down" Jonathan Sturak Self-Promotions by Authors and Publishers 8 08-12-2011 06:42 AM
Gen3 Words "falling off" the screen / sentences cut off (mobipocket) Spektakel Bookeen 6 04-17-2010 11:26 PM
"but i love real books" Why?? troykm Amazon Kindle 23 12-31-2009 03:46 AM
New Harlequin ebook Freebie "Boneyard" Thriller bookratt Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) 9 10-28-2009 06:06 AM
Harlequin "Vegas" Freebie Books bookratt Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) 15 06-10-2009 09:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:56 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.