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Old 10-18-2012, 02:26 PM   #106
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What's the battery life like on the HP?
Heh.
Attrocious. About two hours. Worse, it runs on a *hot* AMD multicore processor.

I got it 'cause my TC1000 tablet was fading and that was the cheapest usable tabletPC I could tolerate. I caught it on sale for $700 at Circuit City. Pre-collapse. (I said it was old.)

As far as laptops go it's okay and did it come with Vista Home Premium and an IR remote and a nice juicy HDD but as tablets go it is simply too much: too heavy, too hot, too bulky. The TC1000 just spoiled me.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:13 PM   #107
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I am very interested. For reasons I won't get into here, I am thinking of getting one for my son to use in school. OneNote is awesome and could almost completely eliminate the need to carry a big binder around.

Pricing aside, the Surface makes much better sense to me than a laptop. A fair bit more compact and lighter. I assume it will 'boot-up' almost instantly like an iOS device and no moving parts in a hard drive. And then the ease of using a touch screen.

Can't wait to see what the pricing looks like for the pro models. Though I can't see how it would replace my desktop - at least for now. Not sure I could deal with the tiny screen vs. my two 23 inch monitors (not sure I could ever go back to a single screen).

Plus, even at 128gb, not sure that would be enough storage. Guess I could rethink my strategy on what gets stored where. Though, I do admit having a touch screen PC that you can easily carry around is intriguing.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #108
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And, In the case of the Pro, where you can install win7 applications. Does anyone know what that means in terms of the touch screen functionality? i.e. is it somehow smart enough to allow you to use the touch screen to use the applications? Just registers your finger as a mouse click I would guess?
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:46 PM   #109
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I am very interested. For reasons I won't get into here, I am thinking of getting one for my son to use in school. OneNote is awesome and could almost completely eliminate the need to carry a big binder around.

Pricing aside, the Surface makes much better sense to me than a laptop. A fair bit more compact and lighter. I assume it will 'boot-up' almost instantly like an iOS device and no moving parts in a hard drive. And then the ease of using a touch screen.

Can't wait to see what the pricing looks like for the pro models. Though I can't see how it would replace my desktop - at least for now. Not sure I could deal with the tiny screen vs. my two 23 inch monitors (not sure I could ever go back to a single screen).

Plus, even at 128gb, not sure that would be enough storage. Guess I could rethink my strategy on what gets stored where. Though, I do admit having a touch screen PC that you can easily carry around is intriguing.
Shoot, I am so used to instant on, that I forgot to mention that one. Both tablets better come with zero boot time.

BTW, foghat, any of the better tablets can replace a binder for school. Coupled with a good stylus or a keyboard, whatever your preference. I have been taking notes on my iPad exclusively since the first one. Noteshelf is my preferred app for that.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:59 PM   #110
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And, In the case of the Pro, where you can install win7 applications. Does anyone know what that means in terms of the touch screen functionality? i.e. is it somehow smart enough to allow you to use the touch screen to use the applications? Just registers your finger as a mouse click I would guess?
Yes.
TabletPC has been doing that for years.
Also on the Pro: full stylus support for handwriting recognition that works, voice recogntion, ink as a data-type that apps understand, and a really good customizable on-screen keyboard that floats above the document or docks in place as you choose.
Here's an overview of some of the Tablet features Windows has accumulated over the last decade plus:
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...-windows-touch

As for note-taking, the combination of OneNote and Outlook is indeed killer.
The audio recording journaling feature to record and annotate classroom sessions by itself is worth the price of admission. For Science and Engineering Students, running MathCad in parallel is practically cheating.

Edit: On storage, USB host support means thumb drives and external hard drives. And MicroHD support mean plenty of options there, too.

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Old 10-18-2012, 04:16 PM   #111
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Shoot, I am so used to instant on, that I forgot to mention that one. Both tablets better come with zero boot time.

BTW, foghat, any of the better tablets can replace a binder for school. Coupled with a good stylus or a keyboard, whatever your preference. I have been taking notes on my iPad exclusively since the first one. Noteshelf is my preferred app for that.
The main reason I am looking for my son is due to some fine motor skill issues leading to some pretty atrocious and slow printing - so stylus, maybe not so much.

OneNote can just be so intuitively organized, just like a binder with tabs. Easily create templates that offer a good starting point each day - customized per class. Not suggesting there aren't iOS apps that can do similar - I really don't know.

Plus he uses other office apps for school. I'm sure could make due with something else, but having Office, coupled with an OS designed for touch and keyboard makes Surface a pretty compelling option for us. Not to mention I find the lack of arrow keys on my iOS devices infuriating.

Last edited by foghat; 10-18-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:20 PM   #112
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Yes.
TabletPC has been doing that for years.
Also on the Pro: full stylus support for handwriting recognition that works, voice recogntion, ink as a data-type that apps understand, and a really good customizable on-screen keyboard that floats above the document or docks in place as you choose.
Here's an overview of some of the Tablet features Windows has accumulated over the last decade plus:
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...-windows-touch

As for note-taking, the combination of OneNote and Outlook is indeed killer.
The audio recording journaling feature to record and annotate classroom sessions by itself is worth the price of admission. For Science and Engineering Students, running MathCad in parallel is practically cheating.

Edit: On storage, USB host support means thumb drives and external hard drives. And MicroHD support mean plenty of options there, too.
OneNote only will support Outlook and the audio stuff in the Pro version. Not a big deal for my son though. And true on the removable storage. Honestly, whatever way I end up going in the future, I can't imagine not having a server or more NAS devices. Once I move the music and pictures off my my desktop, storage becomes much less of an issue.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #113
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Surface RT -- A great beginning

I ordered mine midday Tuesday. It sounds like the blue touch cover is a hot item -- by later on Tuesday, its shipping was delayed a la the Paperwhite.

I understand the Microsoft store is lightyears behind the Apple, Amazon, or even Android app stores. But you know what? When a hot object enters the room late, all of a sudden, the rest of the room takes immediate notice and soon everything changes.

Any developer with a pulse has to take notice. Many are turning up their noses to wait on the Pro version. Most are saying the RT version is headed for the dustbin, while the Pro version is all many are interested in. I have a sneaking suspicion "everyone" has it backwards: what happens if the RT version, with the longer battery life and the Windows apps made specifically for touch, becomes the new tablet "standard"? What if Windows ARM touch tablets become ubiquitous? Only mule-like app developers would ignore the writing on the wall.

Tablets have finally matured into the Windows paradigm. The Surface is like a newborn baby. Its usefulness seems pitifully small now. But the potential is off the charts.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:05 PM   #114
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Any developer with a pulse has to take notice. Many are turning up their noses to wait on the Pro version. Most are saying the RT version is headed for the dustbin, while the Pro version is all many are interested in. I have a sneaking suspicion "everyone" has it backwards: what happens if the RT version, with the longer battery life and the Windows apps made specifically for touch, becomes the new tablet "standard"? What if Windows ARM touch tablets become ubiquitous? Only mule-like app developers would ignore the writing on the wall.

Tablets have finally matured into the Windows paradigm. The Surface is like a newborn baby. Its usefulness seems pitifully small now. But the potential is off the charts.
As I developer myself, I think the RT will be the standard model, like you say. Developers will still have a Pro version though. The reason? The RT doesn't run Visual Studio 2012, but I can have a single device to develop and use if I get a Pro.

So the developers are turning up their nose at the RT for a good reason. But you are also right that most people won't be getting the Pro.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:20 PM   #115
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From a software development point of view the RT vs Pro debate shouldn't matter: Visual Studio simutaneously supports both. Develop new apps for one and you're developing for the other. Both are "metro" Windows running the same APIs.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:23 PM   #116
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From a software development point of view the RT vs Pro debate shouldn't matter: Visual Studio simutaneously supports both. Develop new apps for one and you're developing for the other. Both are "metro" Windows running the same APIs.
Which is exactly my point though. I can target both, but if I want to develop/consume on a single device, I need the Pro. If am not developing for the platform, then there's no reason to get the Pro unless those additional features (like Ink) are compelling. Not sure why the RT doesn't support Ink though.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:06 PM   #117
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Could you define what an app is? I thought that they were different: a native x86 app/exe would not be able to execute on RT?
ARM is a different type of CPU than the x86 (and, later, x64) CPUs you've been used to. A native x86 app only runs on an x64 OS because of magic (WOW64, etc). For an ARM device to host a native x86 app would require something similar. (This is not a new problem -- I had similar issues with old Atari software after a model change).

WinRT doesn't allow native app installation beyond the pre-install (which answers an earlier speculation about Calibre -- I think it would need to be specifically re-written to run on the ARM machines, which means a Windows Store/"Modern" app).

Now writing for ARM and x86 and x64 is not that much of a problem -- Visual Studio supports that, and the Store helps with the distribution, with no difference in the source code. Writing Windows Store apps lends itself well to CPU agnosticism, since unless you're looking for the pain that is managing memory under C++ (and some people have compelling reasons for doing so) you're going to be using .NET or JavaScript where you have to work hard to make something chip-specific (including a native component like SQLite is one way to do so).

(FWIW, I'm a dev on one of the teams that wrote pre-installed apps for Win8/WinRT. I'm happy to provide advice on using Win8 and developing apps -- I would love to see Calibre in the Store -- but obviously I'm trying to stay within the terms of my employment, in addition to the fact that there were some things that were kept at arm's length -- note the earlier disclaimer that I've not been allowed to *touch* a Surface yet.)
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:17 PM   #118
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And, In the case of the Pro, where you can install win7 applications. Does anyone know what that means in terms of the touch screen functionality? i.e. is it somehow smart enough to allow you to use the touch screen to use the applications? Just registers your finger as a mouse click I would guess?
Touch screen registers similar to mouse, even for legacy apps. Basically, I've rarely required my stylus on my Samsung (generally only for precision, or for actual inking).
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:18 PM   #119
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I'm totally impressed by the variety of upcoming Windows 8 devices. Guess this is the beginning of major shifts in the tablet market.

Best regards,
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Especially if the price comes down or Microsoft throws in a free Touch Cover around the holidays. The Surface offers features Android and iOS can't match.


http://www.cio.com/article/712950/Wi...at_Seton_Hall_


http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/ga...ts-ipad-299445


http://www.pcworld.com/article/20122...beats-ios.html

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Old 10-18-2012, 08:33 PM   #120
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Which is exactly my point though. I can target both, but if I want to develop/consume on a single device, I need the Pro. If am not developing for the platform, then there's no reason to get the Pro unless those additional features (like Ink) are compelling. Not sure why the RT doesn't support Ink though.
The Pro has a Wacom digitizer in addition to the capacitance touch layer.
The RT only has capacitance and capacitance isn't precise enough for Windows-grade quality ink.

Last edited by fjtorres; 10-18-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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