A more serious conversation - Page 2

technomom · 01-02-2011, 09:11 PM

I adore Sigil beyond all reason and burble about it to anyone who will listen! I would happily pay $20 for it, although it wouldn't be easy for me. I'm quite happy to hear that you've been approached by someone who wants to pay you to advertise in the installer. Go for it!

I just began using Flight Crew and am incredibly tickled to hear that it will soon be integrated into Sigil. Thank you!

I didn't know that there is a Calibre plugin to launch Sigil from within Calibre - would someone provide a link? I'm still a bit unclear on finding new Calibre plugins. If not, I'll poke around until I find it, because I'm very, very interested.

Thank you very much!

Ahmad Samir · 01-02-2011, 09:49 PM

The ads in the installer, they don't hurt anyone, they don't hinder usage and you get a few bucks out of it, so why not??

I really like Sigil, and I don't want to see it go away any time soon; AFAIK it's the only one of its kind (in the Linux universe at least).

The point it, a developer working on an open source application must have a motive, as you said he wants an app to do a certain job that no other app out there does (or does finely enough), he gets a kick out of developing it... etc; in your case you were even lucky enough to mix your hobby with your studies, by making your thesis about Sigil. So yeah, if those ads aren't going to be too much in the way, I say all the better for you; Sigil deserves much more than the few nickels and dimes those ads will get you :)

kiwidude · 01-02-2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by technomom

I didn't know that there is a Calibre plugin to launch Sigil from within Calibre - would someone provide a link? I'm still a bit unclear on finding new Calibre plugins. If not, I'll poke around until I find it, because I'm very, very interested.

Thank you very much!

All of the GUI plugins for Calibre (and I've written quite a number now) are located in this thread.

There is an index I maintain on the first post to all the plugins within the thread. Specifically related to Sigil I recommend the "Open with" plugin which you can find at this post.

kiwidude · 01-02-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valloric

A system where other devs can easily plug into the GUI or backend at runtime is trivial for applications written in interpreted, dynamic languages like Python in Calibre's case. For compiled applications it's much more difficult, as I'm sure you're aware.

Yeah I am aware

I wasn't at all suggesting that Sigil go down that route, as you say it is much less practical for a multi-platform C++ application than a Python one. My point was that it gives tinkerers an outlet to add their pet feature rather than pestering the devs about it.

Then again I also frequently make other mods to the source code and run locally as I have done with both Sigil and Calibre - yes only I get the "benefits" of my changes but it is harmless to anyone else

.

Hopefully the positive responses here in this thread so far go some way to a first step on allowing you to keep holding the reins a while longer.

technomom · 01-03-2011, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwidude

All of the GUI plugins for Calibre (and I've written quite a number now) are located in this thread.

There is an index I maintain on the first post to all the plugins within the thread. Specifically related to Sigil I recommend the "Open with" plugin which you can find at this post.

Thank you!

crutledge · 01-03-2011, 08:09 AM

I agree with everything you said. Perhaps you have a case of mid-winter blues.

Keep your vision for Sigil and make those changes which are truly bugs or fit into your vision. Answer the "Pink Screen" with a recommendation for a CSS entry.

I do have one change request to go along with this.

Take a page from Calibre and insert a "Donate to Sigil" selection. I for one am agreeable to donating especially when a new version is delivered.

Remember what we were told in the Army:

"Cheer up! Things could get worse.
So we cheered up and, sure enough, things got worse."

Keep the faith, baby.

LGN · 01-03-2011, 10:14 AM

Your blogpost seems to be about two semi-seperate things: The GUI and options of the application and the additional software.
The first part focusses on developers, which aren't always the best GUI designers, and options that only a few people can use. And most users are just that, users. For the most part they aren't programmers. This will be an never-ending 'battle' I guess.

The next part switches gears to talk about optional software. I cursed as MIRO for doing that, ecpecially because they DO have turned it on by default. Poof, there I got a semi-crappy browser toolbar pushed down my throught. I am to blame for not paying attention during install.
If you want to add that in the installer, I feel that you only get some cash if people actually install something, or you get payed more when you put it ON by default, otherwise, why would some other apps have it on by default.
Why I don't have anything against being added to the installer I hardly see who would actually install any additional software offered by the installer. I think people who do probably think it is needed by the application or weren't paying attention while installing.

And while I hope you will get something out of it, I hope it's worth it to continue Sigil as it's a very useful application and one of the very few in this particular sector.

But that is a seperate issue than the talk about the LIGIS application I think, worth a thread on it's own.

Leep · 01-03-2011, 11:02 AM

I have only recently started using Sigil and am still finding my way around it. I'd say go for it as long as it does not drag down the performance of the product.

I definitely believe that most folks have no idea how many hours it takes to produce a useful product but just love the idea of finding and trying something for free. For the most part, those that continue to use the product have no problems with remuneration for the developer. That's why I like and support Calibre's "donate" button. It benefits us all if the product continues to evolve because it is worth the developers time and energy.

cheers

Hitch · 01-04-2011, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crutledge

I agree with everything you said. Perhaps you have a case of mid-winter blues.

Keep your vision for Sigil and make those changes which are truly bugs or fit into your vision. Answer the "Pink Screen" with a recommendation for a CSS entry.

I do have one change request to go along with this.

Take a page from Calibre and insert a "Donate to Sigil" selection. I for one am agreeable to donating especially when a new version is delivered.

Remember what we were told in the Army:

"Cheer up! Things could get worse.
So we cheered up and, sure enough, things got worse."

Keep the faith, baby.

I agree with Crutledge--take it a step further and put that donate button up there. I mean, crap, speaking of pink-and-gold and bidets (we were discussing bidets, right?), if people are so douche-y that they use your project and can't be bothered to go to Sigil's development blog and develop a little honor of their own, nag 'em. Or for that matter, charge for it. Maybe have different licenses, if that floats your boat; folks like Crutledge, who donate so many books get it for free, folks like me who use it commercially pay, whatever.

I'm all for it. It's an excellent editing tool, and I'd be much slower without it. MUCH.

Hitch

crutledge · 01-04-2011, 09:51 AM

Valloric,

I remember reading on your development site that you had problems with donations because some outfit did not want to send money to your location so I stayed away. I just checked again and found PayPal. I assume that all is now OK?

Now for the great mystery.

Who is Strahinja Markovic and where is he?

Only the SHADOW KNOWS. Note: This is probably before everyone else's time.

I made a small donation so guys, get with it. The donation link is on the developer's site.

Charlie

Valloric · 01-04-2011, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crutledge

I remember reading on your development site that you had problems with donations because some outfit did not want to send money to your location so I stayed away. I just checked again and found PayPal. I assume that all is now OK?

Are you referring to this post? In the same stickied thread, two posts down is this post.

In other words, yes, it's ok to use PayPal to donate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crutledge

Now for the great mystery.

Who is Strahinja Markovic and where is he?

Only the SHADOW KNOWS. Note: This is probably before everyone else's time.

Everyone knows who the Shadow is.

You're not that old.

theducks · 01-04-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valloric

Are you referring to this post? In the same stickied thread, two posts down is this post.

In other words, yes, it's ok to use PayPal to donate.

Everyone knows who the Shadow is.

You're not that old.

I caught the end few years of the Radio series before TV ruined things

Shadow, Lone Ranger, Mystery Theatre were my standard fare. I could get New York and Cleveland on my Crystal set (Yes, No Tubes or Transistors. I did 'cheat': mine had a sealed Germanium Diode). The 50's were not THAT long ago

crutledge · 01-04-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

I caught the end few years of the Radio series before TV ruined things

Shadow, Lone Ranger, Mystery Theatre were my standard fare. I could get New York and Cleveland on my Crystal set (Yes, No Tubes or Transistors. I did 'cheat': mine had a sealed Germanium Diode). The 50's were not THAT long ago

Ahhh! The GOOD OLD DAYS.

DaleDe · 01-04-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

I caught the end few years of the Radio series before TV ruined things

Shadow, Lone Ranger, Mystery Theatre were my standard fare. I could get New York and Cleveland on my Crystal set (Yes, No Tubes or Transistors. I did 'cheat': mine had a sealed Germanium Diode). The 50's were not THAT long ago

You can still get all of those old shows. There is a satellite channel devoted to them or you can buy them on CD's or download MP3's.

Dale

kovidgoyal · 01-04-2011, 04:48 PM

The people from OpenCandy approached me about adding their toolbars to the calibre windows installer and I turned them down. My reasons were the following (and please note that I am not implying these reasons are valid for you):

1. I do not like having a closed source component from a third party in calibre. I have no way to know what exactly that component does.

2. I absolutely abhor having to spend time on pointless things like clicking Next buttons. calibre's installer is designed to be a single click (after you accept the license) to install, unless you want to use it in Advanced mode.

3. As far as I understood it, the OC component requires a network connection to work.

4. I would, like you, have made it default off, in which case (I imagine), the number of installs, and hence the revenue would fall off drastically. Certainly, personally, I would never click on an add in an installer.

5. People using calibre are incredibly generous and I actually get enough money from donations to work full time on it.

Whether you choose to add the OC component or not, I would urge you to make it easier to donate to Sigil. In particular, have a donate link on the download page and a donate button in the application itself. People may surprise you.

Coming to your points about features. I agree wholeheartedly, the hardest part of my work is turning down enthusiastic contributors. You should maybe consider embedding a scripted language interpreter in Sigil to enable plugins. It's a lot of work, true, but it will payoff in the long term.

01-03-2011, 08:09 AM	#21
crutledge eBook FANatic Posts: 18,301 Karma: 16071131 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama, USA Device: HP ipac RX5915 Wife's Kindle	Go for it! I agree with everything you said. Perhaps you have a case of mid-winter blues. Keep your vision for Sigil and make those changes which are truly bugs or fit into your vision. Answer the "Pink Screen" with a recommendation for a CSS entry. I do have one change request to go along with this. Take a page from Calibre and insert a "Donate to Sigil" selection. I for one am agreeable to donating especially when a new version is delivered. Remember what we were told in the Army: "Cheer up! Things could get worse. So we cheered up and, sure enough, things got worse." Keep the faith, baby.

01-04-2011, 09:51 AM	#25
crutledge eBook FANatic Posts: 18,301 Karma: 16071131 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama, USA Device: HP ipac RX5915 Wife's Kindle	Being nosey Valloric, I remember reading on your development site that you had problems with donations because some outfit did not want to send money to your location so I stayed away. I just checked again and found PayPal. I assume that all is now OK? Now for the great mystery. Who is Strahinja Markovic and where is he? Only the SHADOW KNOWS. Note: This is probably before everyone else's time. I made a small donation so guys, get with it. The donation link is on the developer's site. Charlie

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01-02-2011, 09:11 PM	#16
technomom Enthusiast Posts: 40 Karma: 10 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA, US Device: Kindle Paperwhite, iPad Pro, iPhone 12 mini	I adore Sigil beyond all reason and burble about it to anyone who will listen! I would happily pay $20 for it, although it wouldn't be easy for me. I'm quite happy to hear that you've been approached by someone who wants to pay you to advertise in the installer. Go for it! I just began using Flight Crew and am incredibly tickled to hear that it will soon be integrated into Sigil. Thank you! I didn't know that there is a Calibre plugin to launch Sigil from within Calibre - would someone provide a link? I'm still a bit unclear on finding new Calibre plugins. If not, I'll poke around until I find it, because I'm very, very interested. Thank you very much!

01-02-2011, 09:49 PM	#17
Ahmad Samir Zealot Posts: 114 Karma: 5246 Join Date: Jul 2010 Device: none	The ads in the installer, they don't hurt anyone, they don't hinder usage and you get a few bucks out of it, so why not?? I really like Sigil, and I don't want to see it go away any time soon; AFAIK it's the only one of its kind (in the Linux universe at least). The point it, a developer working on an open source application must have a motive, as you said he wants an app to do a certain job that no other app out there does (or does finely enough), he gets a kick out of developing it... etc; in your case you were even lucky enough to mix your hobby with your studies, by making your thesis about Sigil. So yeah, if those ads aren't going to be too much in the way, I say all the better for you; Sigil deserves much more than the few nickels and dimes those ads will get you :)

01-03-2011, 10:14 AM	#22
LGN Connoisseur Posts: 88 Karma: 60 Join Date: Oct 2010 Device: ProMedia eReader, Sony PRS-600	Your blogpost seems to be about two semi-seperate things: The GUI and options of the application and the additional software. The first part focusses on developers, which aren't always the best GUI designers, and options that only a few people can use. And most users are just that, users. For the most part they aren't programmers. This will be an never-ending 'battle' I guess. The next part switches gears to talk about optional software. I cursed as MIRO for doing that, ecpecially because they DO have turned it on by default. Poof, there I got a semi-crappy browser toolbar pushed down my throught. I am to blame for not paying attention during install. If you want to add that in the installer, I feel that you only get some cash if people actually install something, or you get payed more when you put it ON by default, otherwise, why would some other apps have it on by default. Why I don't have anything against being added to the installer I hardly see who would actually install any additional software offered by the installer. I think people who do probably think it is needed by the application or weren't paying attention while installing. And while I hope you will get something out of it, I hope it's worth it to continue Sigil as it's a very useful application and one of the very few in this particular sector. But that is a seperate issue than the talk about the LIGIS application I think, worth a thread on it's own.

01-03-2011, 11:02 AM	#23
Leep Guru Posts: 739 Karma: 1018859 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Near Seattle Device: kindle1, K3, K3G (thanks MR), iTouch, Kindle Touch	I have only recently started using Sigil and am still finding my way around it. I'd say go for it as long as it does not drag down the performance of the product. I definitely believe that most folks have no idea how many hours it takes to produce a useful product but just love the idea of finding and trying something for free. For the most part, those that continue to use the product have no problems with remuneration for the developer. That's why I like and support Calibre's "donate" button. It benefits us all if the product continues to evolve because it is worth the developers time and energy. cheers

01-04-2011, 04:48 PM	#30
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 43,860 Karma: 22666666 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	The people from OpenCandy approached me about adding their toolbars to the calibre windows installer and I turned them down. My reasons were the following (and please note that I am not implying these reasons are valid for you): 1. I do not like having a closed source component from a third party in calibre. I have no way to know what exactly that component does. 2. I absolutely abhor having to spend time on pointless things like clicking Next buttons. calibre's installer is designed to be a single click (after you accept the license) to install, unless you want to use it in Advanced mode. 3. As far as I understood it, the OC component requires a network connection to work. 4. I would, like you, have made it default off, in which case (I imagine), the number of installs, and hence the revenue would fall off drastically. Certainly, personally, I would never click on an add in an installer. 5. People using calibre are incredibly generous and I actually get enough money from donations to work full time on it. Whether you choose to add the OC component or not, I would urge you to make it easier to donate to Sigil. In particular, have a donate link on the download page and a donate button in the application itself. People may surprise you. Coming to your points about features. I agree wholeheartedly, the hardest part of my work is turning down enthusiastic contributors. You should maybe consider embedding a scripted language interpreter in Sigil to enable plugins. It's a lot of work, true, but it will payoff in the long term.

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