|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
06-17-2019, 11:39 AM | #16 |
Wizard
Posts: 2,631
Karma: 73864785
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDXish
Device: Kindle Voyage, various Android devices
|
Is anyone else surprised to find that we don't know what killed Alice Kober? We knew she died early but what happened was never stated early, it became distracting to me as her illness went on that we didn't know what it was. I really wish that "we don't know" was stated early on rather than leaving it open and letting us wonder. I kept expecting an answer only to find that there isn't one.
|
06-17-2019, 11:47 AM | #17 |
Wizard
Posts: 2,631
Karma: 73864785
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDXish
Device: Kindle Voyage, various Android devices
|
For Linear B itself, the dropping of consonants at the end of words feels like a huge leap of translation to me. That is the step that really makes it difficult for me to imagine Kober solving this.
Also, the adaptation of the indigenous (we assume) Linear A script to suit Greek words when Greek is (apparently) so structurally different from the original seems odd. But, given the almost pre-history nature of this, I suppose it makes sense. There weren't a lot of other written languages to draw from. I would be interested in knowing how and why the ancient Greeks moved from Linear B to their own script. I don't think there have been any bridging or intermediary steps between Linear B and ancient Greek found. Certainly they didn't have a hard Linear B to Ancient Greek transition and it was a more smooth transition though. Or, did Linear B not catch on in the mainland and Ancient Greek is an independent construct? We know there was some on the mainland but not the extent or any of that history. I want to know more! |
Advert | |
|
06-17-2019, 11:54 AM | #18 | |
Wizard
Posts: 2,631
Karma: 73864785
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDXish
Device: Kindle Voyage, various Android devices
|
While I'm on a posting spree...
I was really amused by the "highly expressive" names for foreigners and slaves: Quote:
|
|
06-17-2019, 04:41 PM | #19 |
Wizard
Posts: 1,013
Karma: 19767610
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Device: ipad, Kindle PW, Kobo Clara; iphone 7
|
I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s comments and share many of your thoughts as well. I enjoyed the book. I’ve always found ancient history & linguistics fascinating, so it definitely held my interest. That said, I’d only give it a 2.5 or 3.
My quibble, and it really did annoy me, is with the book’s framework that Kober’s work was deeply unappreciated, and that Michael Ventris has been given too much credit. I don’t agree with either point. I’m glad Fox took the time to go through Kober’s personal papers and has highlighted her accomplishments. They were substantial and she deserves that recognition. And it’s true that like other women in academic positions, Kober wasn’t treated fairly by the university system. I realize many of you see this differently, but when the author compares her treatment to Rosalind Franklin, I felt she was going too far. Franklin was robbed. No one stole Kober’s work, or claimed it as their own. Her papers were published under her own name. She was invited to give lectures. Her work on Linear B was acknowledged by male colleagues working in the field, who reached out to collaborate with her. She was awarded an important fellowship and granted a year’s leave by the university to focus on her research. And Kober could have had a higher profile. She was encouraged to publish more and lecture more, but was reluctant to do so. For example Fox criticizes Michael Ventris for not mentioning Kober in the BBC announcement of his discovery. How unfair! It was an overwhelming time. It was only a few days after his discovery. He was pressed to make the public announcement by his BBC friend who wanted the scoop. And he still was hesitant himself, and unsure about how the academics would react. On page 263, Fox acknowledges that Ventris credited Kober “at some length” in a scholarly lecture. She says that he acknowledged her publications, her systematic analysis, etc., “But it was too little too late”. Come on! What’s more important? Ventris crediting her work in an academic address, with a published transcript, or mentioning her in a 3 minute public announcement when he was still in shell shock? And that wasn’t the only time - there are many instances where Ventris recognized Kober’s breakthroughs, and he personally reached out to her on a number of occasions. He wasn’t responsible for the glass ceiling in the university system. I think I found the framework of women’s rights frustrating because I felt it was insincere and unnecessary. Kober’s work was substantial enough on its own to warrant the book. I thought Fox decided to use an exposé framework, and draw comparisons with Franklin to artificially heighten interest in the book, not because she believes Kober was mistreated in terms of her work on Linear B. That undermines women, including Kober and Franklin, is a disservice to Ventris, and is dishonest with her readers. End of rant Would Kober have solved Linear B? Maybe - who can say for sure how Bennett’s publication of the Pylos Tablets in 1951 would have helped her? I don’t know. But she did have the benefit of seeing far more of Evans’ tablets than anyone else; an advantage Ventris didn’t have. Michael Ventris worked without the educational background and formal advantages that the academics had. Of course Kober’s work assisted him. But the collaborative approach to problem solving that he took, and the intellectual insights he had were uniquely his own. He also took the huge risk of leaving his job, so he could concentrate on the work. I think any credit he got for the discovery was well deserved, and in no way detracts from Kober. Last edited by Victoria; 06-17-2019 at 05:33 PM. |
06-17-2019, 05:25 PM | #20 | |
Wizard
Posts: 1,013
Karma: 19767610
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Device: ipad, Kindle PW, Kobo Clara; iphone 7
|
Quote:
In terms of her death, wasn’t it jarring to see how many people died young? And there were many personal tragedies too. |
|
Advert | |
|
06-17-2019, 06:52 PM | #21 | |
Snoozing in the sun
Posts: 10,137
Karma: 115423645
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
|
Quote:
|
|
06-17-2019, 07:01 PM | #22 |
Snoozing in the sun
Posts: 10,137
Karma: 115423645
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
|
I absolutely agree with you Victoria and with Dazrin about all those “ifs”. I think Fox has gone overboard on the lack of appreciation of Kober’s work, and downplayed that of Ventris.
He was appreciative of her work as described in her articles, and wanted to work in collaboration with her. It seemed to me that she had an academic snootiness about Ventris because he was approaching the problem from a different angle in thinking the language might be Etruscan. In other words, she was the sort of person who thought there was only one way to solve the problem, which was her way. |
06-17-2019, 07:03 PM | #23 |
Snoozing in the sun
Posts: 10,137
Karma: 115423645
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
|
On the matter of Kober’s illness, I seem to remember that early on Fox commented on the lack of information but speculated that it was a form of cancer because she was a chain smoker, and her filing “drawers” were cigarette cartons.
|
06-17-2019, 07:16 PM | #24 | |
Wizard
Posts: 2,631
Karma: 73864785
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDXish
Device: Kindle Voyage, various Android devices
|
This is a point in history (there are many) where I am lacking my own knowledge. I am trying to piece it together as I go.
Quote:
If Linear B is just a time capsule and doesn't have a waterfall effect on how Greece itself or the surrounding countries developed then it is a little less interesting to me. Still a great story and a great learning opportunity but much less meaningful to the world as we know it now if Linear B completely died out before having an opportunity to transform or be incorporated into another language that did make it and did have more influence in today's world. |
|
06-17-2019, 07:37 PM | #25 | |
E-reader Enthusiast
Posts: 4,871
Karma: 36507503
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southwest, USA
Device: Kindle Oasis 3; Kobo Aura One; iPad Mini 5
|
One of the items that I found curious is what motivated Fox to write this book and focus so much attention on Alice. I was surprised to learn that she is well-known as an obituary writer for the New York Times. In addition to a master’s degree in journalism, she also earned bachelor’s and master’s degrees in linguistics from Stony Brook University. With this background, I can understand how she combined her skills and passion in multiple interests and felt compelled to write this book.
I found this article in the New York Times where she has written a modern obit of Kober. Much of it is repetitive to the book. It’s a good refresher if you have already returned the book to the library like me. However I thought the concluding paragraphs were interesting. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/12/s...y-no-more.html Quote:
|
|
06-17-2019, 07:44 PM | #26 | |||
Wizard
Posts: 2,631
Karma: 73864785
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDXish
Device: Kindle Voyage, various Android devices
|
Quote:
Quote:
I am not used to academic papers but it seems like they should try to find at least a couple different examples. Otherwise, how are we supposed to believe the examples are trends and not just a few odd-ball cases of this happening? I understand leaving in "devourer of excrements" and "having the bottom bare", those are too good to pass up, but give us something else for the other examples. (Note: I added the rest of the passage that I had highlighted to my original quote here instead of the abbreviated passage I have in the original post.) |
|||
06-17-2019, 07:53 PM | #27 |
E-reader Enthusiast
Posts: 4,871
Karma: 36507503
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southwest, USA
Device: Kindle Oasis 3; Kobo Aura One; iPad Mini 5
|
Me too. Somewhere before I read the book I saw it compared to Simon Winchester and Dava Sobel which set my expectations higher, but I don’t think it was quite up to their level.
|
06-17-2019, 08:05 PM | #28 | |
E-reader Enthusiast
Posts: 4,871
Karma: 36507503
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southwest, USA
Device: Kindle Oasis 3; Kobo Aura One; iPad Mini 5
|
Quote:
http://sites.utexas.edu/scripts/ http://sites.utexas.edu/scripts/abou...-finding-aids/ |
|
06-17-2019, 08:07 PM | #29 | |
Snoozing in the sun
Posts: 10,137
Karma: 115423645
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
|
Quote:
However, I think that even though the tablets were only of part of a year's records, they still gave the people studying the period a lot more information than they had previously about how the system worked. So they were important from that angle, apart from the intellectual puzzle of working out what they said. |
|
06-17-2019, 08:09 PM | #30 | |
Snoozing in the sun
Posts: 10,137
Karma: 115423645
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
|
Quote:
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The 2019 Annual Reading Challenge Discussion Thread | pdurrant | Reading Recommendations | 161 | 01-01-2020 05:20 PM |
New Leaf May 2019 Discussion • The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman | issybird | Book Clubs | 82 | 05-27-2019 08:16 PM |
New Leaf Vote for June 2019 • Into the Labyrinth: The Quest | issybird | Book Clubs | 9 | 05-23-2019 11:49 PM |
New Leaf Nominations for June 2019 • Into the Labyrinth: The Quest | issybird | Book Clubs | 105 | 05-14-2019 11:44 AM |
Other Fiction Lawrence, D. H.: The Fox. v1. 05 June 07 | Dr. Drib | BBeB/LRF Books | 0 | 06-05-2007 09:33 AM |