New Leaf April 2019 Discussion • The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

[Wearever]

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

Indeed! I was being a tad ironic. Somehow I don’t think they would have been removing anything that put him in a bad light.

I know
Oh yes , the worse Richard lll looked the better it was for Henry Vll. While reading The White Queen, it's a work of fiction also but it was from Elizabeth Woodville's perspective. She did suspect Henry Tudor and Duke Buckingham along with Richard lll of her sons disappearance. They along with Henry's mother and Lord Stanley all had opportunity and motive. It didn't hurt that Richard thought he could trust Buckingham and Stanley as friends. Until he couldn't .

[gmw]

I've come up with yet another solution to their disappearance, but drafted it in the form of a letter (just because it amused me to do so):

Dear Mother,

You sent me off to play at being Prince of Wales when I was three. What did you expect that to do to a kid? And now I am king but no one will listen to me anyway, so it was all for nothing. But perhaps not quite nothing. One thing it did was make me capable of acting on my own initiative, and that's what I'm going to do.

Little brother Richard and I have talked it through and decided you and our sisters are all power mad witches who care nothing for us or each other, and we want nothing more to do with you. After lights out tonight, Richard and I are going to sneak out and make our way to Wales. I have friends there that will take us in and we can lead a life of monastic anonymity and put my excellent education to better use than fighting endless wars.

I leave it to you and my power hungry uncle to squabble over the pieces. The survivor can make up whatever story suits best; I am sure you can find some suitable bodies to fill our places if that becomes necessary.

Your King and son,
Edward V

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Wearever

One thing I could never understand is why their sister Elizabeth would ever consider marring King Richard lll. He destroyed their family had them found illegitimate and is presumed to have murdered her brothers. I would think they would all want to be as far away from Richard as possible under the circumstances. Although she was a prisoner in the abby and may have stockholm syndrome .

It doesn't seem particularly problematic to me; it seems quite practical. She wanted to be queen, and that meant marrying whoever was king, whether it was Richard or Henry. Being Richard's queen would have had the additional benefit of binding him to her family, and wouldn't he have had to reinstate her legitimacy too if he married her, just as Henry did?

[Wearever]

Originally Posted by gmw

I've come up with yet another solution to their disappearance, but drafted it in the form of a letter (just because it amused me to do so):

Lol ! That was what I was thinking too. They decided to leave and went to become silent monks. They were well educated for their times. Probably would have had enough after being cooped up in the tower. I hope they did. It would have been easy enough sadly to find corpses of boys their ages during the plague years. It could work.

[Wearever]

Yes ....... but she was also a teenager in the abby, and not being able to meet any boys at all. Not to mention suitable ones. Her hormones were raging and would have probably fell in love with the first guy that paid attention to her. Sadly her Uncle used her just like Henry Vll did for political gain. I did read somewhere that Margaret Beaufort , Henry's mother was called the mother in law from hell. She never forgave Princess Elizabeth for wanting to marry Richard after she was promised to Henry Vll. It really was the real life version of the game of thrones. I think anyone that was a serf back then counted their blessings. I know I would.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Wearever

Yes ....... but she was also a teenager in the abby, and not being able to meet any boys at all. Not to mention suitable ones. Her hormones were raging and would have probably fell in love with the first guy that paid attention to her. Sadly her Uncle used her just like Henry Vll did for political gain. I did read somewhere that Margaret Beaufort , Henry's mother was called the mother in law from hell. She never forgave Princess Elizabeth for wanting to marry Richard after she was promised to Henry Vll. It really was the real life version of the game of thrones. I think anyone that was a serf back then counted their blessings. I know I would.

Would Elizabeth--or any young noblewoman of the time--have expected anything other than an arranged marriage advantageous to her family? Seems to me that if you expect to be married off to someone, becoming queen would be quite a consolation prize.

Don't know Game of Thrones at all.

[Bookpossum]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Would Elizabeth--or any young noblewoman of the time--have expected anything other than an arranged marriage advantageous to her family? Seems to me that if you expect to be married off to someone, becoming queen would be quite a consolation prize.

Don't know Game of Thrones at all.

No, I don’t know it either.

I agree Elizabeth would have known she would have no say in who she was married to. I don’t think there is any proof of the suggestion that she was to be married to Richard, other than a letter addressed to him, which could have been from her or her mother, assuring him of her devotion, or words to that effect. Not necessarily anything to do with marriage.

I think Henry might have been the husband from hell, whatever his mother was! Why do you say Elizabeth wanted to be queen, Catlady? I should think the further away from court, the better.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

Why do you say Elizabeth wanted to be queen, Catlady? I should think the further away from court, the better.

Because of the ping-ponging from Henry to Richard back to Henry.

Alison Weir characterizes her as ambitious and angry when Richard didn't marry her.

[Bookpossum]

I see - thanks Catlady. I was curious, as I hadn’t read anything about what she might have wanted in terms of marriage, always supposing she had any say in the matter.

[Wearever]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Would Elizabeth--or any young noblewoman of the time--have expected anything other than an arranged marriage advantageous to her family? Seems to me that if you expect to be married off to someone, becoming queen would be quite a consolation prize.

Don't know Game of Thrones at all.

In Princess Elizabeth's case it was different, she was made illegitimate by her Uncle Richard. So were her sisters. I'm sure as princesses they had already been promised to marry someone of their status. After Richard declared them illegitimate, I suppose they had to take whatever Richard chose for them. Elizabeth's sister Cecily second oldest to Elizabeth had been married off to someone in much lower or even humiliating status, just before Richard went into battle with Henry Vll. He did it to prevent Henry Vll from marrying her instead of Elizabeth. She would still be a York Princess in Henry's eyes and that was a political move. Cecily was not happy. It turns out he disappeared after the battle when Henry Vll became King.

[Wearever]

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

No, I don’t know it either.

I agree Elizabeth would have known she would have no say in who she was married to. I don’t think there is any proof of the suggestion that she was to be married to Richard, other than a letter addressed to him, which could have been from her or her mother, assuring him of her devotion, or words to that effect. Not necessarily anything to do with marriage.

I think Henry might have been the husband from hell, whatever his mother was! Why do you say Elizabeth wanted to be queen, Catlady? I should think the further away from court, the better.

That's certainly true Henry Vll was pretty bad himself. I found a web page devoted to Margaret Beaufort , that said it was debunking myths for the Mother in Law from Hell status. I guess there are a lot of rumors about this and it seems that people can relate to having a Mother In Law from Hell. Lol. The facts however are that Margaret Beaufort perhaps co reigned with Elizabeth more than anything else. They also dressed alike. I'm sure this would qualify more than anything else. Lol. She also signed her letters Margret R which would make it look like she was Queen instead of just Dowager Queen, and she did work with Elizabeth on charities for the church. She also helped Elizabeth's sister Cecily who married without the King's permission. It was a love match and Margaret supported Cecily when her son was angry about it. Margaret won, so she clearly understood matters of the heart as well. Certainly a good ally when needed.

Edited to add : It would appear this was not the case for her daughter in law Elizabeth. I don't think Margret trusted Elizabeth's judgment after she dumped her son in favor of Richard.

[Bookworm_Girl]

I was looking on my bookshelves for something else and discovered a book called Tales from the Tower published by Think Books in association with Historic Royal Palaces. I had forgotten that we purchased this book at the bookshop when we toured the Tower of London. I was curious how it portrayed the story of the Princes. It has a small feature that is objective and presents both sides of the story, even directly acknowledging the Richard III Society.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...From_the_Tower

Then I had a thought that I wondered what the official guidebook published by Historic Royal Palaces had to say. It basically says that the popular theory is that Richard murdered the Princes. It says that it is unsolved. It does not mention directly the Richard III Society.

Here's a link to the HRP website for the Tower of London.
https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/history-and-stories/the-story-of-the-tower-of-london/

[Wearever]

Originally Posted by Bookworm_Girl

I was looking on my bookshelves for something else and discovered a book called Tales from the Tower published by Think Books in association with Historic Royal Palaces. I had forgotten that we purchased this book at the bookshop when we toured the Tower of London. I was curious how it portrayed the story of the Princes. It has a small feature that is objective and presents both sides of the story, even directly acknowledging the Richard III Society.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...From_the_Tower

Then I had a thought that I wondered what the official guidebook published by Historic Royal Palaces had to say. It basically says that the popular theory is that Richard murdered the Princes. It says that it is unsolved. It does not mention directly the Richard III Society.

Here's a link to the HRP website for the Tower of London.
https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/history-and-stories/the-story-of-the-tower-of-london/

Thanks for the links Bookworm_Girl
That still is to this day an impressive fortress. Especially with the lights shining on it at night. How lucky you are to have seen it ! Did one thing stand out about the tower more than anything else for you when you saw it ?

[CRussel]

The crown jewels!

Plus the Traitor's Gate, and, of course, the ravens.

[issybird]

Sitting in the royal chapel in the Tower, St. Peter ad Vincula, knowing that Anne Boleyn was buried under the floor. It made her so real.

And, the Beefeaters.