What iPhones cost to make

[heySkippy]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Its not a question of hate or insults. Its merely a comment trying to point out the cult like devotion to one company that these products inspire.

That is almost entirely made up by the haters. The haters put words in the mouths of Apple users, things the users themselves don't think or say. They do it so often that before long, they've come to believe their own lies. It's fairly pathetic, really.

[TheOmegaZoid]

Originally Posted by heySkippy

That is almost entirely made up by the haters. The haters put words in the mouths of Apple users, things the users themselves don't think or say. They do it so often that before long, they've come to believe their own lies. It's fairly pathetic, really.

Is it so pathetic to question how much money from the profits goes back to the assembly line workers who build these models? Is it so pathetic evaluate wthe discrepancy between the lifestyle that your typical worker is forced to adopt as opposed to the typical lifestyle of a person who can afford to buy apple devices? Is it so pathetic to question Apple's effect on culture as they become ever more embedded in the sale of music, books, and films for example?

[TheOmegaZoid]

Just to give an example of the kinds of people Apple is in business with. Well to say in business with is a bit of a misnomer as these companies have been practically absorbed into Apple.

One of the manufacturers Hon Hai chair Terry Guo is quoted as saying about his workforce...
"Hon Hai has a workforce of over one million worldwide and as human beings are also animals, to manage one million animals gives me a headache."

While some said he was kidding when he said that, it's true that Guo invited Chin Shih-chien, who is the director of Taipei Zoo, to his company to teach his own managers exactly how animals should be "managed."

And apple has no problem with this.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Is it so pathetic to question how much money from the profits goes back to the assembly line workers who build these models? Is it so pathetic evaluate wthe discrepancy between the lifestyle that your typical worker is forced to adopt as opposed to the typical lifestyle of a person who can afford to buy apple devices?

No, it is not pathetic to ask that question. And you would be surprised at the answer: workers in the electronics industry in China are paid very well by local standards and most of them have smartphones.

[TheOmegaZoid]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

No, it is not pathetic to ask that question. And you would be surprised at the answer: workers in the electronics industry in China are paid very well by local standards and most of them have smartphones.

Would that be workers in Taiwan or China? My understanding is that Hon-Hai and such are Taiwanese companies who take advantage of the cheap labor in China. Are you really telling me that the workers in shenzhen have iPhones?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Just to give an example of the kinds of people Apple is in business with. Well to say in business with is a bit of a misnomer as these companies have been practically absorbed into Apple.

One of the manufacturers Hon Hai chair Terry Guo is quoted as saying about his workforce...
"Hon Hai has a workforce of over one million worldwide and as human beings are also animals, to manage one million animals gives me a headache."

While some said he was kidding when he said that, it's true that Guo invited Chin Shih-chien, who is the director of Taipei Zoo, to his company to teach his own managers exactly how animals should be "managed."

And apple has no problem with this.

You believe everything you read? And what would Guo (running the biggest factories in the world) possibly hope to learn from the Taipei Zoo manager? Put down "das Kapital" and go to China to have a look. You are incredibly gullible, how could that comment not be a joke? Whatever you think of Guo, he is not that stupid.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Would that be workers in Taiwan or China? My understanding is that Hon-Hai and such are Taiwanese companies who take advantage of the cheap labor in China. Are you really telling me that the workers in shenzhen have iPhones?

Yes, a lot of the workers in Guangdong have iPhones, though Android is doing better. Factory workers now make around US$ 500 per month, the good ones more. And wages are going up 20-30 pct each year, factories are closing. Those looking for cheap labor now go to Bangladesh, Indonesia, Myanmar, etc. The days of cheap labor in China are definitely over. In Taiwan workers even get $1000 to 1500.

[TheOmegaZoid]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

You believe everything you read? And what would Guo (running the biggest factories in the world) possibly hope to learn from the Taipei Zoo manager? Put down "das Kapital" and go to China to have a look. You are incredibly gullible, how could that comment not be a joke? Whatever you think of Guo, he is not that stupid.

Actually I've spent time in Taiwan. I'm certain that Guo is not stupid. And on your part I wouldn't assume it was a joke. Apple makes sure that companies like his follow the bare minimum of standards. But those are very low. The whole reason Guo got the contract with Apple is because he could guarantee a cheaper price of manufacture as opposed to his rivals. How? By using cheap uneducated labor from China thereby paying the workers less. Jobs loves this kind of stuff!

And Apple went for it, because it leaves them more money to create new shiny toys for the masses, and build UFO style buildings out in sunny Cupertino.

Anyone whos looked at the way the Foxconn factories are managed knows that the Taipei Zoo comment was no joke. They really took it to heart.

Put down 'Das Kapital'? There couldn't be a better example than the difference of environment between Shenzhen, Cupertino.

[TheOmegaZoid]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Yes, a lot of the workers in Guangdong have iPhones, though Android is doing better. Factory workers now make around US$ 500 per month, the good ones more. And wages are going up 20-30 pct each year, factories are closing. Those looking for cheap labor now go to Bangladesh, Indonesia, Myanmar, etc. The days of cheap labor in China are definitely over. In Taiwan workers even get $1000 to 1500.

These would be the managers I assume. So one iphone or android phone costs more than a months salary. Sure in Taipei everyones got them, but not so in China.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Actually I've spent time in Taiwan. I'm certain that Guo is not stupid. And on your part I wouldn't assume it was a joke. Apple makes sure that companies like his follow the bare minimum of standards. But those are very low. The whole reason Guo got the contract with Apple is because he could guarantee a cheaper price of manufacture as opposed to his rivals. How? By using cheap uneducated labor from China thereby paying the workers less. Jobs loves this kind of stuff!

And Apple went for it, because it leaves them more money to create new shiny toys for the masses, and build UFO style buildings out in sunny Cupertino.

Anyone whos looked at the way the Foxconn factories are managed knows that the Taipei Zoo comment was no joke. They really took it to heart.

Put down 'Das Kapital'? There couldn't be a better example than the difference of environment between Shenzhen, Cupertino.

The China labor market is extremely competitive. You don't like your employer, money, benefits aren't good? Walk a few 100 yards to the next door and you will get a good deal there. Have you ever been on a factory floor? I have been in close to 1000. Yes, there is pressure, this is no picnic. Which is why workers are paid very well by local standards. Those who don't like it go into service industries. The environment in those modern factories in China is as good as in factories in the US. Working hours are strictly controlled (40 hours plus overtime, maximum 60 and heavy fines are being levied by the customers -- I can't confirm this personally for Apple, but for other major brands in various industries). Factories are spacious, clean, with many green and recreation areas for the workers. I have eaten in many workers' canteens. No, it is not up to Cupertino standards, but it is all quite pleasant. As far as a production environment can be. Factories like Foxconn have to be, to attract workers and customers.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

These would be the managers I assume. So one iphone or android phone costs more than a months salary. Sure in Taipei everyones got them, but not so in China.

500 US is the take-home pay for a local assembly line worker in a first rate factory in Southern China. You can't even get a custodian for less than 300.

And yes, an iphone is still a little more than a month's salary, but they buy them. Status symbols are extremely important to the Chinese.

And I repeat, nobody goes to China for cheap labor today. They did 20 years ago. Most of them have already left for greener pastures during the last 3 years, or are about to.

[TheOmegaZoid]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

The China labor market is extremely competitive. You don't like your employer, money, benefits aren't good? Walk a few 100 yards to the next door and you will get a good deal there. Have you ever been on a factory floor? I have been in close to 1000. Yes, there is pressure, this is no picnic. Which is why workers are paid very well by local standards. Those who don't like it go into service industries. The environment in those modern factories in China is as good as in factories in the US. Working hours are strictly controlled (40 hours plus overtime, maximum 60 and heavy fines are being levied by the customers -- I can't confirm this personally for Apple, but for other major brands in various industries). Factories are spacious, clean, with many green and recreation areas for the workers. I have eaten in many workers' canteens. No, it is not up to Cupertino standards, but it is all quite pleasant. As far as a production environment can be. Factories like Foxconn have to be, to attract workers and customers.

The way you describe it it sounds like a Chicago economist's paradise. A naturally evolving market, plenty of work and enough cash if you're prepared to work hard. Sadly the reality is a little different. Folks in China work hard and grab as much overtime as possible because they have no other choice, as their salaries are not enough to feed their families and buy a status phone.

Its companies like Apple which actively encourage the cult like status of their silly little device, and it plays to their interests that China has become a capitalist economy where wealth determines your social status. Gee whatever happened the noble ideals of communism there?

Recently some newspapers got undercover agents in on the factories preparing for the iPhone 5 and found the conditions and stories of labor appalling in some cases. And it was even worse before until people called Apple out on it, who then forced Gou and his associates to make it look nice. I'm sorry but Gou and other industrialists do look upon the population as animals to be harnessed, they're getting very rich of it, and as usual with slaves, the workers do not have a real choice, particularly as in the case of Foxconn workers they have no education other than what Foxconn provides.

Gee great, now that Apple's ready to move onto poorer nations, they can just leave and set up camp somewhere else, effectively taking away all the jobs and money that have evolved around them. Let the Chinese get poor again, and then Apple will be back. Make no mistake, these capitalists play the global economy like the stock exchange, I was hoping that China could evolve above that. Already the signs are that China's economy is slowing.

The correct thing of course would be to pay workers the right amount, ban overtime, and charge the rich americans 10 dollars more for an iPhone. Gosh how terrible would that be? Or better yet, why not put Americans to work making their own devices, and promote the rise of other companies around the world to create a more balance and fair market, instead of suing competitors and accusing them of copying.

[Edward M. Grant]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Gee great, now that Apple's ready to move onto poorer nations, they can just leave and set up camp somewhere else, effectively taking away all the jobs and money that have evolved around them.

I don't get it. Apple is EVIL for paying people a wage they're happy to work for because their cost of living is low, but they're also EVIL for taking the jobs somewhere else?

Do you want Apple to provide jobs for these people or not?

[TheOmegaZoid]

Originally Posted by Edward M. Grant

I don't get it. Apple is EVIL for paying people a wage they're happy to work for because their cost of living is low, but they're also EVIL for taking the jobs somewhere else?

Do you want Apple to provide jobs for these people or not?

I wouldn't say Apple is evil per se, but that they participate in a form of evil... yes.

The cost of living is low, because the standard of living is low. Also Apple doesn't set the wage, it just chooses the company who offers the lowest price for manufacture. How do they lower the price? Cheap wages. Apple is at the top of the pyramid if you like, and the economy forms around their business in this case, so if they move... it crumbles. Also bad. This is the problem with globalization. It benefits the companies, but workers can fall through the gaps.

Morally, as the head of the business, Apple should be directly concerned with how the devices are built, and charge a little more to consumers, if need be.

They should also recognize the nature of this industry by encouraging the growth of other companies, and not try to monopolize it.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Morally, as the head of the business, Apple should be directly concerned with how the devices are built, and charge a little more to consumers, if need be.

Apple already charges a lot. That's why I don't buy their products.

Economists have done a lot of research on whether export-oriented industry pays more. We could potentially start a war of scholar.google.com links on this, but the general answer from mainstream economists is that export industry pays more.

Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid

Also Apple doesn't set the wage, it just chooses the company who offers the lowest price for manufacture.

While production cost is a factor, Apple's success requires being able to bring new features and designs to market quickly. If you have read your James Fallows, you know that this, rather than wages -- which are quickly rising -- is China's real competitive advantage in making these gadgets.

So, factually, I doubt your claims. No serious student of the Chinese business cycle blames Apple. The democratic alternative to globalization is the old Indian socialism. Import controls meant that only a few of the rich could afford the lousy local automobiles, while the peasants starved. But in as much as pressure from your side of the fence reduces labor exploitation, people saying what you say, however mistaken, may do some good.