mobi without ePub ...

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You can do that with Sigil or Calibre Editor and you can see what the result of the CSS code is very easily. Your way you create the CSS, edit the HTML, run Kindlegen, see what you get and what you don't realize is you may very well NOT be seeing the Mobi. You may be seeing the KF8.

Some of us can see without WYSIWYG; well, I hope Kindle Previewer knows what is what.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Can you give some specific examples of these mysterious “spices”?

Linked files need not be defined in the OPF under <manifest>, e.g. external stylesheets or images (other than the cover). KindleGen either finds them by itself or throws a warning. (Warnings do not stop compilation of the mobi, just like with a “real” compiler.)

How the <guide> section in the OPF is interpreted.

Depreciated method (in terms of HTML5) for declaring UTF-8 as the character encoding.

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Sella174

Linked files need not be defined in the OPF under <manifest>, e.g. external stylesheets or images (other than the cover). KindleGen either finds them by itself or throws a warning. (Warnings do not stop compilation of the mobi, just like with a “real” compiler.)

Using unmanifested files with KindleGen might work, but you're not following best practices; it'll also ensure that an epub book assembled from these files will be invalid.

Originally Posted by Sella174

How the <guide> section in the OPF is interpreted.

Even though most epub2 apps will ignore the guide section, adding the guide items recommended by Amazon won't invalidate an epub book, because they're a part of the epub2 specs. BTW, Sigil has a dedicated menu option for adding guide items (Add Semantics...).

Originally Posted by Sella174

Depreciated method (in terms of HTML5) for declaring UTF-8 as the character encoding.

Epub2 books are supposed to contain utf-8 or utf-16 encoded (X)HTML files and, AFAIK, KindleGen does not require deprecated character encoding declarations.
In fact, according to section 2.2.1 of the Kindle Publishing Guidelines, Amazon recommends using valid epub books.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Using unmanifested files with KindleGen might work, but you're not following best practices; it'll also ensure that an epub book assembled from these files will be invalid.

It does work and is documented in the “official” examples, but wasn’t that the point: me giving an example of something valid for KindleGen that produces an invalid ePub?

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Even though most epub2 apps will ignore the guide section, adding the guide items recommended by Amazon won't invalidate an epub book, because they're a part of the epub2 specs. BTW, Sigil has a dedicated menu option for adding guide items (Add Semantics...).

True, but KindleGen makes certain assumptions based on the <guide> section in the OPF.

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Epub2 books are supposed to contain utf-8 or utf-16 encoded (X)HTML files and, AFAIK, KindleGen does not require deprecated character encoding declarations.

Character encoding in HTML5 is done with <meta charset="UTF-8">, but KindleGen still requires the depreciated HTML 4.01 method of <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">, even though the file is read as HTML5 if defined as such.

Originally Posted by Doitsu

In fact, according to section 2.2.1 of the Kindle Publishing Guidelines, Amazon recommends using valid epub books.

Not in version 2017.4 of that document.

------

I must say this thread has become tedious. After five pages nothing constructive has been said about creating mobi files - I do not count pushing automated software for a round-about method as a viable solution. However, I've taught myself how to do it using source files fed directly into KindleGen by reading the Publishing Guidelines and perusing the myriad example provided by Amazon.

[JSWolf]

You don't need HTML5. The Mobi part of the dual-mobi file doe snot support HTML5. KF8 does not need HTML5. So stop trying to use HTML5.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You don't need HTML5. The Mobi part of the dual-mobi file doe snot support HTML5. KF8 does not need HTML5. So stop trying to use HTML5.

As an example, <article> is an HTML5 tag, hence if I want to use it, I must define the source file as HTML5. Same with <aside>, <figure> and <footer>. Also, the Publishing Guidelines states that <font>, <center> and <big> are depreciated, all valid HTML 4.01 tags.

As I said, tedious.

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Sella174

It does work and is documented in the “official” examples [...]

What "official" examples are you referring to?

Originally Posted by Sella174

[...] but wasn’t that the point: me giving an example of something valid for KindleGen that produces an invalid ePub?

Not really, if you manifested all unmanifested files, KindleGen would continue to work and you'd end up with a valid epub.
You also claimed that it isn't possible to create valid epubs with Amazon guide items with Sigil, which simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by Sella174

Character encoding in HTML5 is done with <meta charset="UTF-8">, but KindleGen still requires the depreciated HTML 4.01 method of <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">, even though the file is read as HTML5 if defined as such.

The current KindleGen version does not require these declarations.

Originally Posted by Sella174

Not in version 2017.4 of that document.

Originally Posted by Kinde Publishing Guidelines version 2017.4

2.2.1 KindleGen

Publishers can create Kindle files in-house by using a free software program called KindleGen. [...]

To create Kindle files using KindleGen, you need:

• A single HTML file that represents the entire book; or
• EPUB-compliant files. (IDPF’s EPUB spec is available at http://idpf.org/EPUB/30/spec/EPUB30-overview.html)

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

What "official" examples are you referring to?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1000765211 ... on the right.

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Not really, if you manifested all unmanifested file, KindleGen would continue to work and you'd end up with a valid epub.

If, but I don't have to for KindleGen to work.

Originally Posted by Doitsu

You also claimed that it isn't possible to create valid epubs with Amazon guide items with Sigil, which simply isn't true.

When Sigil stopped supporting Windows XP, it was still struggling with EPUB version 2. Maybe it has caught up with EPUB version 3 by now, but yes, I wouldn't know and neither do I care about Sigil.

ePub 2 was XHTML 1.1, whereas ePub 3 is XHTML5 (according to http://www.idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epu...changed-xhtml5). In that same document it states that <guide> and NCX has been depreciated in ePub 3 (http://www.idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epu...c-deprecations).

So which version of ePub do you make with Sigil? If ePub 2, then you can't use HTML5 tags; if ePub 3, then NCX - which KindleGen requires in an ePub - and <guide> are gone. Or do you go for a hybrid ePub 2/3 that might or might not work as expected on all devices?

Originally Posted by Doitsu

The current KindleGen version does not require these declarations.

Yes, it does. Maybe not for the languages in which you publish your books, but in mine it's certainly required.

Originally Posted by Doitsu

...

There is an “or” in there, so the use of an ePub is optional.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sella174

As an example, <article> is an HTML5 tag, hence if I want to use it, I must define the source file as HTML5. Same with <aside>, <figure> and <footer>. Also, the Publishing Guidelines states that <font>, <center> and <big> are depreciated, all valid HTML 4.01 tags.

As I said, tedious.

But what do you do about Mobipocket format that doesn't support those features? How can you make it so things work in both formats? That's the problem at Amazon. You have to deal with an obsolete format.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But what do you do about Mobipocket format that doesn't support those features? How can you make it so things work in both formats?

I assume KindleGen knows how to convert these tags into Amazon's own proprietary encoding.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You have to deal with an obsolete format.

So is HTML5, JPEG, paperbacks, internal combustion engines, nuclear power, farming in dirt ... the list goes on and on.

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Sella174

If ePub 2, then you can't use HTML5 tags; if ePub 3, then NCX - which KindleGen requires in an ePub - and <guide> are gone.

You can compile epub3 books with KindleGen, if you define cover and toc with landmarks instead of guide items. For details see section 5.3.1 Defining Cover and TOC in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

You can compile epub3 books with KindleGen, if you define cover and toc with landmarks instead of guide items. For details see section 5.3.1 Defining Cover and TOC in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines.

What's it now? Five pages? Five pages of you all pushing the EPUB-to-(MOBI/KF8)-mobi methodology using Sigil and Calibre as the only way to create a (MOBI/KF8)-mobi. It’s not.

EOD

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Sella174

As an example, <article> is an HTML5 tag, hence if I want to use it, I must define the source file as HTML5. Same with <aside>, <figure> and <footer>. Also, the Publishing Guidelines states that <font>, <center> and <big> are depreciated, all valid HTML 4.01 tags.

As I said, tedious.

Well, you may well find it tedious, but generally, most of the responders here are trying to help you, based on years of experience and tried and true best practices, all built from those years of experience and realistically, between all of us, thousands of books. Thousands. My firm alone has done more than 3500 eBooks/mobi files.

For example--you want to use article? Aside? Figure? Footer? Good luck with that, because NONE of those will work on the PRC/KF side of your MOBI file. That's what Jon (Wolfie) was saying, in his own way, when he said, "HTML5 doesn't work," or words to that effect.

Most of us have learned--the hard way--that thinking that X is a great idea, or that we can do X, because it works in Y, doesn't work in MOBI format, or at best, only works in KF8, and not in KF7. And sometimes, it won't work consistently or reliably across KF8, OR, it will work for Amazon KF8, but you can't make it work decently in iOS readers for Kindle.

For that matter, I'll tell you that there's crap in the KPG that flatly DOES. NOT. BLOODY. WORK, and if you get into it with Amazon--I mean, Seattle, not some guy at the call center/CSR in India--you'll find two completely different divisions telling you completely, and I mean, completely opposite things, coding-wise.

The KPG came around from two standpoints--one was Mobipocket, and the other was Word--period. To this day, it's a bit of a mishmosh, constantly being updated and tweaked and FIXED. The examples are, by and large--wrong. They have been for years.

BUT, hey: good luck with your MOBI files. As far as how tedious or tiring or boring, etc., this thread is, you asked about making a MOBI, by its lonesome, w/o ePUB. Fine. I told you several different ways to do it, all of them pretty much the ONLY ways to do it.

As far as ePUB, ANYONE at Amazon will tell you that ePUB is definitely preferred, and moreover, EVERY BPH loads ePUB, and only ePUB, to Amazon. Without exception. So, you can sit here and argue with us--those of us who've made thousands of mobis--that you know better, because, bygod, you read the INSTRUCTIONS--but when Doits tells you that ePUB is preferred, it was, it is, and it has been, and yes, it's been in the KPG practically since the beginning. Because Amazon's come out with those two godawful tools, the KindleCreate tools, they've dropped that last line from the KPG, but for professional publishers, I think you can reasonably infer that they'll be uploading ePUBs, in both 2 and 3 format, for years to come.


/hopefully, done with this thread now.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Sella174

I assume KindleGen knows how to convert these tags into Amazon's own proprietary encoding.

NO, it bloody well does NOT. That's why the table in the KPG shows you that it's ONLY KF8 supported.

So is HTML5, JPEG, paperbacks, internal combustion engines, nuclear power, farming in dirt ... the list goes on and on.

Whatever.


Hitch

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

In fact, according to section 2.2.1 of the Kindle Publishing Guidelines, Amazon recommends using valid epub books.

I got all excited about that, but when I looked at 2.2.1, it appears to be merely one of two possibilities for using KindleGen:

>To create Kindle files using KindleGen, you need:
> A single HTML file that represents the entire book; or
> EPUB-compliant files.