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Old 12-22-2017, 02:55 PM   #61
Katsunami
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Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
There are plenty of other phone brands with a lot better update policy. I bought an Moto G4 as a succesor to my Nexus 5, but unfortunatly that update policy went out the window since they were taken over by Lenovo. If I was in the market now, I would look to Wiley or some OnePlus. It is such a shame Google stopped with the Nexus line. It was a good bang for buck.
I've received the battery for the N4 today and tried to replace it. (That was absolutely necessary, because a battery life of 4-5 hours when doing nothing is just... not good enough.)

As I already half-way expected, it's c**** C***** junk. It's hard to fit into the phone, and the connector screw holes are off the mark. I got the battery into the phone (after first damaging the rim with the *plastic* pry tool), but it doesn't work. I probably broke the connector because I had to wrangle everything into place.

I've been testing several different operating systems (Android 6.x and 7.x), but they all seem to be built for newer phones; even with the old baterry in it, the stock 5.1.1 was MUCH better with battery life than 6.x and 7.x.

I have no time or inclination to keep jackassing around with this for weeks installing and re-installing the phone with different OS's and kernels and reconfiguring the apps I need, and putting more money into trying other batteries.

In the end, I trashed the N4 (literally) and ordered a Moto G5.

N4 <-> G5;

Quadcore 1.5 GHz <-> Octacore 1.4 GHz (Both Snapdragon/Qualcomm; the G5 is about 2.5 times as powerful as the N4, and the N4 was already good enough.)
2GB RAM <-> 3GB RAM
3g internet <-> 4g internet
4.7 inch <-> 5 inch (size approx the same, but N4 needs a cover because it's made out of glass... the G5 is plastic)
1280x720 <-> 1920 x 1080 (don't care)
16 GB Storage <-> 16GB Storage
2100 mAh battery <-> 2800 mAh battery
Fixed/Glued <-> Replaceable

The G5 runs Android 7.x (don't know the exact version) and is slated for an update to Android 8.x. People are also busy with getting LineageOS 14.1 and 15 (Android 7.x and 8.x) onto it, and everything seems to be working.

Best thing: this phone has a replaceable battery, as did ALL OF MY OTHER PHONES before the Nexus 4. The Nexus 4's battery life was OK for my light use, but it always has been at the bottom of the range. The G5 seems to be average; only high-end smart-phones are better.

Just as with laptops, I'm going to adopt the stance of "no replaceable battery? Then I don't want it", except if the device is *really* cheap and I don't expect it to last longer than a year or two. I use my phones and laptops for 4-5 years, and if they sitill perform well enough, that might be extended until they utterly fall apart or just *really* can't run what I want them to.

If nothing strange happens, the €175 Moto G5 will do. I only need a smartphone for a few things:

- Calls
- Whatsapp
- Public transport apps
- Internet
- Navigation
- Sometimes: Youtube, if I'm too lazy to go and find my 5 year old Galaxy Tab tablet.

That's about it.

I hope to receive it tommorrow, or I might be out of a phone during christmas.

Last edited by Katsunami; 12-22-2017 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 12-22-2017, 04:04 PM   #62
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In the end, I trashed the N4 (literally) and ordered a Moto G5.

N4 <-> G5;

Quadcore 1.5 GHz <-> Octacore 1.4 GHz (Both Snapdragon/Qualcomm; the G5 is about 2.5 times as powerful as the N4, and the N4 was already good enough.)
2GB RAM <-> 3GB RAM
3g internet <-> 4g internet
4.7 inch <-> 5 inch (size approx the same, but N4 needs a cover because it's made out of glass... the G5 is plastic)
1280x720 <-> 1920 x 1080 (don't care)
16 GB Storage <-> 16GB Storage
2100 mAh battery <-> 2800 mAh battery
Fixed/Glued <-> Replaceable

The G5 runs Android 7.x (don't know the exact version) and is slated for an update to Android 8.x. People are also busy with getting LineageOS 14.1 and 15 (Android 7.x and 8.x) onto it, and everything seems to be working.

Best thing: this phone has a replaceable battery, as did ALL OF MY OTHER PHONES before the Nexus 4. The Nexus 4's battery life was OK for my light use, but it always has been at the bottom of the range. The G5 seems to be average; only high-end smart-phones are better.

Just as with laptops, I'm going to adopt the stance of "no replaceable battery? Then I don't want it", except if the device is *really* cheap and I don't expect it to last longer than a year or two. I use my phones and laptops for 4-5 years, and if they sitill perform well enough, that might be extended until they utterly fall apart or just *really* can't run what I want them to.

If nothing strange happens, the €175 Moto G5 will do. I only need a smartphone for a few things:

- Calls
- Whatsapp
- Public transport apps
- Internet
- Navigation
- Sometimes: Youtube, if I'm too lazy to go and find my 5 year old Galaxy Tab tablet.

That's about it.

I hope to receive it tommorrow, or I might be out of a phone during christmas.
That is about the same I use my phone for, but I include mail and news. Like I said, I bought the G4 back then. For me good enough and I do not see the reason to buy a 'flag-ship' when this is good enough for me.
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Old 12-22-2017, 05:00 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
That is about the same I use my phone for, but I include mail and news. Like I said, I bought the G4 back then. For me good enough and I do not see the reason to buy a 'flag-ship' when this is good enough for me.
Oh. Of course I use it for e-mail as well.

I've never had any use for flagship phones. The high-end models are running close to €1000 at the moment, for the new models.

[b]Not in this life.[/url]

I am _not_ going to pay €1000 for a phone of which I don't know how long it will receive updates, and even if it does, it becomes useless in 4-5 years because the battery dies.

The N4 has a 'somewhat replaceable' battery... you'll have to pry the phone apart (damaging the plastic rim in the process), then pry the battery out using a knife as leverage as it is glued into the phone (possibly damaging the phone, as you can't heat up the glue, for heating up a battery is a VERY bad idea), and THEN you have to hope that the new battery fits and isn't junk, as even the "original LG batteries" are probably not original.

This was a big minus when I bought it, but at that time, I was looking for a phone that could go for about 1-2 years for a low price, and the N4 was it. In the end, it lasted 5 years (minus 2 weeks or so).

The G5, looking at my usage and its specs over the N4, should last me at least 3 years before I need to start hacking and modding; and if I do, I can just replace the battery and (probably) flash something like LineageOS with Android 9 or 10 or 11 or whatever.

Really, I _don't_ see any need to own a €1000 smartphone.

I've seen people complaining about the G5's screen on time of around 7 hours. The complaint is that there are 'some' budget phones that can have 8+ hours of SOT, and the high-end models have 10+. WHY would I need 10+ hours of SOT in a day?! If a phone lasts ~24 hours with light use, it's good enough for me. I have stuff to do that doesn't require me to stare at a phone screen for 10 hours.

Oh, and a big point for the G5 is that it has a plastic back. I can use it without a cover. I couldn't with the N4, which had a glass back. Without a cover, the G5 will be the same size as the N4, but have a 5 inch screen instead of 4.7 inch. For the record: I have _never_ dropped a phone I've owned. Maybe that's because I don't play with it all day.

=== On the same subject of batteries and non-replaceable parts ===

This is one of the reasons I'm still running around with a "fat" laptop. (People often tell me that my laptops look 'old'.)

Yes, they do... but they do have replaceable batteries, hard drives, SSD's, and even CD-ROM players and keyboards. As long as the screen and the mainboard are alive, I can upgrade and fix these things. Therefore, I can use a laptop for 5-8 years. I _refulse_ to pay €1000-1500 or more for a so called "ultra-book" that has to be thrown away as soon as something happens to it out of the warranty.

My god, I _HATE_ the current-day "throw everything away after 2 years" society.

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Old 12-22-2017, 05:02 PM   #64
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Most of his work is financial applications for which APL matrix operations are well suited, and he claims he can deliver completed applications in the time it will take developers working in other languages to determine how long it will take them to do what the RFC calls for.
I first ran into APL in engineering modelling, then in financial services - plagued by a horde of quants. Its fine when its used for its intended domain, but some folks try to apply it inappropriately - like bread and butter record keeping applications, or in one case instrument control

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Old 12-22-2017, 05:51 PM   #65
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Strange... I'm going over some more reviews of the Moto G5 and they contradict.

- Tweakers.net has a review where it says the phone is made partly of metal.
- It also has a roundup where it says the phone is plastic.
- Online reviews seem to be contradictory as well.

I wonder if this thing has a metal or a plastic back cover. Not that I care either way; as long as it isn't a 0.7mm sheet of glass as it was with the Nexus 4.
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Old 12-22-2017, 06:28 PM   #66
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For logistical reasons I'm probably going to have to relent and get a smartphone for similar usage as Tox & Kat. So I'm asking myself why wouldn't I wander over to JB HiFi next week and get a Nokia 3 for under AUD200 (EUR130, GBP115, USD155)?

I have a low end Surface tablet, and a hi-end Dell desktop. Current dumb phone is more than 10 years old, works a treat, but it only does voice and sms.

Thoughts anyone

BR
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Old 12-22-2017, 07:03 PM   #67
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There are some reasons for choosing the Motorola G5.

- It has a _very_ good screen according to reviews.
- It's fast for the price you pay.
- Removable battery: so if the phone is still good enough after 3-5 years, you can just get a battery (hoping it won't be crap like the one for my nexus) and swap it, as I'd been able to do with every dumbphone I ever saw.
- It doesn't need a cover/case. (I don't drop phones regularly...)
- Update to Android 8.x is imminent (January/Febuary).
- Some people are jacking around with LineageOS already, and having success, and all the older Motorola G-series are supported, so there's a chance LineageOS will be ported to the G5 as well.

The Nokia 5 gets good reviews (but no removable battery). Haven't really looked into the Nokia 3, but the MediaTek MT6737 SOC (4 cores at 1.3 GHz) is a lot slower than the Snapdragon 430 (8 cores at 1.4 GHz, and better Instructions Per Second).

The Nokia 5 and the Motorola G5 are basically the same phone, with some differences:

NOK5 <=> MG5
5.2" 1280x720 <=> 5.0" 1920x1080
2 GB RAM <=> 3 GB RAM (in the Netherlands. Both phones have 2GB and 3GB versions in different countries.)
3000 mAh batter <=> 2800 mAh battery
Non-removable battery <=> Removable battery
Both run Android 7.x, with an upgrade to 8.x promised.

Those are (for me) the most important differences. I went for the MG5 because of the removable battery. The Nokia 5 does have a much better/more certain update policy though.

===

I can't (don't want) to live without a smartphone anymore. In the last 10-12 years (when I started working full time) I move around a lot more than before, and having a GF again makes this even more so, because of planning dates, visiting family around the country and such... i.e., getting to places where I'd never go or have to go when I was alone.

Google Maps, public transport apps / route planning, and instant news if something goes wrong there, are just too convenient, as is an app such as Whatsapp. (Even though I hate the fact that most of those apps I use are controlled by Facebook or Google...)

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Old 12-22-2017, 08:45 PM   #68
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For some reason I find any discussion about smart phones irritating, so now I'm not sure I want one. Found a Moto C for AUD140

BR
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:01 PM   #69
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For some reason I find any discussion about smart phones irritating, so now I'm not sure I want one. Found a Moto C for AUD140

BR
I like my smart phone about half the time.
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Old 12-23-2017, 06:24 AM   #70
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For some reason I find any discussion about smart phones irritating, so now I'm not sure I want one. Found a Moto C for AUD140
I find the fixation on the latest and greatest to be irritating.

My five year old Nexus 4 was _plenty_ fast enough to do what I want: browse, whatsapp, navigation, a few apps related to public transport, and a bit of Youtube.

The €185 Moto G5 I've ordered is about twice as fast, so if Motorola didn't frack up the Android version on it, it'll be fast enough.

Then there's the Galaxy S7 for around €450 (last year's top model), which is twice as fast as the Moto, and the Galaxy S8 starting at €600, which adds 50% on top of the S7.

So...
N4 = x.
Moto G5 = 2x
S7 = 2 * 2x = 4x
S8 = 1.5 * 2 * 2x = 6x.

I can't even _phatom_ a use of a smartphone that needs six times the power of the N4. If I need that, I'll probably be using a laptop.
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Old 12-23-2017, 10:06 AM   #71
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I find the fixation on the latest and greatest to be irritating.
I find people's fixation on their fiddlefones irritating - period, even if its a decade old device.

At her suggestion, I recently had lunch with an ex. She now lives out in the sticks, in town for a workshop (I think). I swear she spent at least half of our time together f**t-a****g around with her f*****g fone.

BR

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Old 12-23-2017, 10:37 AM   #72
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Had to reboot my monitor - yes my monitor!

When I turned on my computer yesterday afternoon I was faced with a blank screen. I pressed the monitor's on/off switch - its LED went out and didn't come on again <sigh>. Cooked dinner, read some more of Tony Judt's Postwar and went to bed early - which meant I woke up in the early hours.

My plan was to replace the monitor with a spare. After disconnecting it from the UPS, on a whim I reconnected it and pressed the on/off switch; LED came on, Dell logo shows its pretty face, couple of seconds later my Gormenghast forest wallpaper was in front of me.

Why! Who ever heard of having to cold boot a monitor. There's nothing special about it, doesn't make coffee or play jingebells - Dell S2417DG on a 6GB GeForce GTX 1060 card.

BR

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Old 12-23-2017, 11:07 AM   #73
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Perhaps it is the monitor cable or the connection that has a problem, not the monitor itself.
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:15 AM   #74
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I find people's fixation on their fiddlefones irritating - period, even if its a decade old device.

At her suggestion, I recently had lunch with an ex. She now lives out in the sticks, in town for a workshop (I think). I swear she spent at least half of our time together f**t-a****g around with her f*****g fone.
Indeed... then there's that. Fortunately I've met a girl that doesn't have a phone addiction. (Her mom's another story though...) I'm never on my phone apart when I need it to do... phone things. That's basically contacting other people for something, or replying to/answering contact attempts, if I deem it convenient (or necessary), or I'm using services such as navigation or finding public transport times.

===

I've received the Moto G5 today. It's a fine phone as far as I can see. More than fast enough, good build quality, removable battery... it feels like 2010 all over again, before the "my phone is 0.2mm thinner than your phone" fad started and manufacturers started to glue their devices shut to be able to forego screws.

This is just what a phone should be. Large, but not too large, thin but not too thin (9.5mm), fast enough, and without carrier or manufacturer bloatware except for the many "Play *" apps I don't use. (Play Books, Play Music...)

But... it doens't pick up the new nano-sim my carrier sent me.

I renewed my contract, getting more data and more minutes for less money, and they sent me a new SIM because the old one doesn't support 4G (It's like 10 years old: a normal mini-sim cut-down to micro.) I activated it today, waited the stated 1 hour (two actually), and then tried to use it.

Nothing. The phone says both SIM-slots are empty. I swapped the card several times (even tried it the wrong way up...), but it keeps saying "No SIM-card detected."

I've called them, and the lady at support told me "it might take 24 hours for the phone to pick up the sim card." So, I asked her if she meant that it might take 24 hours for the activation to come through (which I could understand); I told her I was of the opinion the phone should be seeing the card, but not necessarily be able to use it yet. No, no, she told me... the card was activated, and it could take 24 hours for the phone to detect that the card was inserted.

I think that's BS. I still think the phone should see the card and then tell me "No Service" or something like that, until the activation comes through, but it literally says both sim card slots are empty. (It's a dual sim phone, and I've tried the card in both slots.)

Because I don't have a bunch of nano-SIM's lying around, I got her to send me another SIM, but it won't arrive before Wednesday _if_ they can even send it before that due to Christmas. If the new card also doesn't work, I'll have to factory reset and swap the entire phone as defective, hoping that will work.

Sigh. Why does _something_ always go wrong that is outside my control or planning?

When I get the new card next week, I'll press it out of the holder as a Mini or Micro-sim first, so I can try it in one of the spare (old) Nokia phones I've got lying around. If it works there, I'm assuming it'll work in the Moto G5, or the phone is defective.

Last edited by Katsunami; 12-23-2017 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:46 AM   #75
DMcCunney
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Originally Posted by BetterRed View Post
I first ran into APL in engineering modelling, then in financial services - plagued by a horde of quants. Its fine when its used for its intended domain, but some folks try to apply it inappropriately - like bread and butter record keeping applications, or in one case instrument control
It's another instance of having a hammer and seeing everything as a nail.

All languages have domains for which they were intended. The friend I mentioned was a VP for years at a big financial house who was supporting bond traders with his code. APL was just made for that sort of thing.

If you understand its idioms, APL can be very expressive in a very concise form, and he mentioned APL coders who would see code and spend a couple of hours figuring out how to do it in fewer characters.

My pick for health hazard might just be the TECO language available on DEC mini-computers, where everything was code, and a game among TECO programmers was figuring out what your name would do if entered as code in TECO.

The widespread and very popular Emacs editor began as a set of TECO macros for the version of TECO available on the DEC mini used at MIT's AI lab where it was developed. Lots of folks used TECO macros to make life easier. Richard Stallman and Guy Steele (mostly Stallman), collected and merged them under a regular syntax and the result became Editing MACroS, or emacs. It became the standard editor used at the AI lab, and Stallman commented that he realized how well it met the needs when he could no longer recall how to do what Emacs did in standard TECO.
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