Do some publishers have any idea?

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The fallacy of saying that just because some author (who wasn't Scalzi btw) says it's not accurate for him doesn't mean that it's all wrong, is that the bottom line is there is no way to validate Author Earnings because very few authors and no publishers release that data. All the hand waving and detailed explanations of methodology doesn't change that. It doesn't matter what your methodology is if you don't have good data, and Author Earnings doesn't have accurate data since accurate data isn't available. The fact that a particular book is 253rd on the Amazon SF/Space Opera list doesn't really imply anything other than it sold more at Amazon than the 254th book and less than the 252nd book.

The data was not of course either 100% complete or accurate, nor was it claimed to be.
It was simply the best available. The data was scraped from Amazon and other sources. It was sufficiently complete and accurate to be useful and far more than a mere guess. Citing a couple of statistically insignificant instances is not sufficient to relegate it to this status, no matter how little you may like its conclusions.

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The idea that it's gone commercial implies that it's accurate is a fallacy. The fact that it's gone commercial doesn't imply anything other than they think they can get someone to buy their product. It's not surprising. Nature abhors a vacuum and all sorts of people in the industry (authors, reporters, etc) are looking for some data, any data that people are going to buy it. We see that here.

What I said is that you can draw an inference from the fact that it has gone commercial and major industry players are buying it. It proves nothing except that it is safe to presume that those buying it see some value in it where you regard it as being a guess with little or no value. Perhaps some of these buyers are more qualified to judge its value than I? Or even you! It is not safe to infer from this that the data is 100% accurate. It is safe to infer that people paying for it regard it as more than a mere guess.

In any event I suppose our disagreement on this is pretty pointless now given the current situation.

[Deskisamess]

A silly assumption to make based on not giving enough information about your setup in the first place. Your situation from what I have come across, is far from the norm.

It's actually very normal. I've been using a Kindle since 2009, and have been around the Amazon forums since then. The bulk of those regular users have multiple devices registered to their one Amazon account. The only person who could buy books without asking is my DIL, and she knows it's fine to do, as long as she lets me know. I wouldn't allow someone I didn't trust to have access to my account.

Pretty much every person I know who uses Kindles has other family members who share reading interests on their account.

I think you just like to argue...so I'm out, as I do not. Nor do I like being goaded into explaining or defending my POV. You're intentionally obtuse, and I despise passive aggression.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by maximus83

At the risk of stating the obvious , one thing I've done the last few years that helps cope with the cost of owning books is become a heavy user of my local library. If you have a decent library accessible, I'd highly recommend it.

Anyway, none of this makes the issues around ebook cost go way. But it's one affordable option that lets you deal with it and keep reading.

Certainly a good option for many, and my mum still mostly reads library books (large print ones). She buys the odd ebook to read on her iPad.

My wife also mainly reads Library books, either physical or as an ebook on her tablet. She does rather get plagued with long queues for many of them, especially ebooks.

Been decades since I've read a library book ... exceptions being the remaindered library books I have bought from overseas libraries ... ha ha.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

It's actually very normal. I've been using a Kindle since 2009, and have been around the Amazon forums since then. The bulk of those regular users have multiple devices registered to their one Amazon account. The only person who could buy books without asking is my DIL, and she knows it's fine to do, as long as she lets me know. I wouldn't allow someone I didn't trust to have access to my account.

Pretty much every person I know who uses Kindles has other family members who share reading interests on their account.

I think you just like to argue...so I'm out, as I do not. Nor do I like being goaded into explaining or defending my POV. You're intentionally obtuse, and I despise passive aggression.

I am very sad you feel that way. You seem a very mixed up and muddled up person, who likes to make a lot of assumptions and takes a lot for granted.

I hate arguments, but I give as good as I get. This topic is not about arguing, it is about publishers and fairness. If I have been long-winded (in your brain), it is because I have had a lot to respond to and many areas to cover.

I could have ignored your posts. In hindsight, I probably should have. But you took the time to post, so I responded.

All the best to you.

EDIT
Can't let this one slip by. Long-winded?? What sort of books do you actually read, if you consider my shortish posts long-winded?

Every sentence and paragraph I write, addresses something.

Sure, I probably post longer replies than most people, but in the scheme of things, they really aren't that long. But I suppose it depends on your attention span.

I try to break things up and have wurdles, rather than one big Word Wall like some.

Seems to me, you are criticizing me for being me, and think yourself so much better. I could criticize you for being real dumb, but why should I, people come in all shapes and sizes, and who I am to hold that against them. It costs nothing to be respectful. Very few of us are born geniuses, and they have their own flaws anyway.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Airlines sometimes sell flights for $1 or $5 as a promotion, that doesn't necessarily mean they are making huge profits on the normal price of the flight, but promotion like that can get them a lot of free advertising as long as they don't do it too often. The loss they make on the occasional promotion might be less that the cost of an equivalent advertising campaign with the tickets at full price.

Really? You lucky bugger, I have never seen any discount here approaching anything like those low prices.

It's not really free advertising. Planes cost money to fly. So they are taking a profit hit ... a loss no matter how you look at it, that they are obviously hoping to recoup to some degree.

Still, I will agree, that it is probably not as much of a loss as other forms of promotion.

It is normal practice in many industries to have different prices for the same product, e.g. travel where you might pay full price if you want to travel tomorrow, but get various discounts if you book in advance. The price is not based just on how much the travel costs, but more on what the travellers are prepared to pay.

I don't think you are quite right with that.
An airlines first consideration, is covering costs (including wages) and then attracting enough passengers to make a profit, so that it is all worthwhile. Here at least, they offer cheap seats at the last moment or for flights that won't be fully booked. Just to put bums on seats and cover costs. All weight in a plane though converts to greater fuel usage and thus cost, plus other factors.

This can actually work out to be a better deal for those without lots of money than if they charged one fixed price based on the cost of the travel, because the people who can afford to pay full price are to some extent subsidising the ones who pay the lowest price.

True, but not necessarily balanced or fair for all, but certainly great for some.

I personally couldn't afford to buy every ebook I read at full list price, but that is not a problem because I don't have to. I do buy many at full price, but I keep a big list of books I want to read and pick many of them up at discount prices to bring the average price down.

Definitely some merit in that, and I do similar too. Sometimes, an author does a great discount on one of their books, such that I will pay a little more for one of their other books, than I would normally do. I do that though, because they have kind of earned it.

I still wouldn't pay for an over-priced ebook by another author though, as they don't deserve it and I don't want to encourage bad behavior.

If I had more money I might not bother with that and just buy everything at full price. If I had less to spend I would put more time and effort into planning, bargain-hunting and buying in advance to manage my limited budget.

I used to do a lot of that last, but I have too much empathy for others and ethics to engage in the first bit.

I don't choose what to read based on price though, I think it is important to make the list of what to read without considering the price. But I do choose when to buy and so when to read based on price to some extent.

I never choose what to read based on price, only what I buy or when to buy. So much to read so little time.

I think a higher list price with discounts is actually fairer than having one single price based on cost of production.

I must admit, I don't get the rationale of that.

[Timboli]

As mentioned earlier, here is an example of odd pricing going on.

Alexander McCall Smith is one of my favored authors, though not in my Top 100. I have been buying his books for many years, ever since I saw an interview with him on a book show. His style and content seemed interesting, and his humbleness impressed ... and he reminded me a bit of my dad. Most of his books I have in physical format. Of the 60 plus books I have bought, around 15 are ebooks and some of those novellas or short stories.

Like many fans, his No. 1 Ladies Detective novels are my favorite. After reading a few, I convinced my mum to try them, and she has been lapping them up ever since. In fact, she is way ahead of me, as I have only read about a half dozen in that series.

Of course, it was easy early on, I just lent her my physical copies. Now years later, I only buy ebooks generally. My mum has an iPad, which she does use to read sometimes. She is also 83 years old, and an eye operation a couple of years ago, went wrong, with a claimed Eye Stroke, which means she has lost something like 95% vision in that eye, so basically useless. So if she can't get Large Print books, she needs to use a large font with her iPad.

I very much enjoy sharing the books with her, one of the few things we read in common.

I have been buying ebooks in that series, since number 16, which I got at a fair price. Number 17 however, has never been at a fair price and I have been watching it for a few years now. During that time, I have bought number 18 and number 19 and others of his ebooks at fairish prices.

Starting at number 11, here are their current prices for me. $USD.
11. $8.49
12. $9.20
13. Not Available to me currently.
14. $8.56
15. $8.77
16. $8.77
17. $11.95 ($16.85 AUD)
18. $8.61
19. $10.74

All the earlier ebooks in the series, are around $9.20, except for first which is $8.49.

Now I know it is only just over 1 USD compared to what I paid for number 19, but there is a principle and a fear at stake going on. In fact, you could say I bought number 19 at that price due to the fear of its cost rising. However, it did fall around my $10 USD limit. And if not for my mum, I would have waited.

When you look at these novels, none are very long, so a small word count compared to the majority I buy. Word count and file size between 16, 17, 18 and 19 is not that different, so why is number 17 so much more in price?

Is it due to some kind of experiment (ties into one of my fears) or did the book make a loss somewhere down the line (publishing or editing error etc of physical version)?

I could just spend what amounts to about $3 USD ($4.18 AUD) more than I want to, and make my mum happy, but I am holding out because I don't want to encourage the publisher to start charging this sort of price for all.

This is a sort of mildish difference in price. The next ebook is vastly different.

EDIT
I added number 17 to my Wishlist on the 1st May 2016. At that time, it was $13.11 USD. Since that time, it has gone both up and down in price, highest was $13.78 and lowest is current price of $11.95. It has been at the price since 29th December 2018. Most of the time since adding to my list, it has been around the $12.40 mark.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Starting at number 11, here are their current prices for me. $USD.
11. $8.49
12. $9.20
13. Not Available to me currently.
14. $8.56
15. $8.77
16. $8.77
17. $11.95 ($16.85 AUD)
18. $8.61
19. $10.74

All the earlier ebooks in the series, are around $9.20, except for first which is $8.49.

Now I know it is only just over 1 USD compared to what I paid for number 19, but there is a principle and a fear at stake going on. In fact, you could say I bought number 19 at that price due to the fear of its cost rising. However, it did fall around my $10 USD limit.

When you look at these novels, none are very long, so a small word count compared to the majority I buy. Word count and file size between 16, 17, 18 and 19 is not that different, so why is number 17 so much more in price?

While I don't agree with everything you've said, I am empathetic to your arguments.

But for this example, the guy has written at least 18 books you've considered worth a purchase. #17 is one dollar more than the rest. But then most of the books are under your ten dollar threshold. It seems like it might be fair to the author to let this one pass. As Roger Thornhill's mother said: Pay the two dollars.

For what it's worth, Precious and Grace is currently showing a price of $9.99 at Amazon US (I believe you said that is where you buy your ebooks).

Every book in the series is marked at the same price of $9.99 except for the first book ($7.99) and the latest book ($12.99).

[Timboli]

Going on from my last post, one of the things that bothers me, is targeted pricing or the future possibility of it ... based on the data kept about you.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Going on from my last post, one of the things that bothers me, is targeted pricing or the future possibility of it ... based on the data kept about you.

That's something I've wondered about. In its simplest form: If a book appears on wish lists does that mean it is more or less likely to be reduced in price? Surely a wish list item indicates people are interested in reading it when it is cheaper, but a reseller might decide it means people are interested and will eventually get sick of waiting for it to come down in price.

[ekbell]

Originally Posted by darryl

So far as PD books are concerned, they are not generally part of your so-called race to the bottom. Mostly they have finally reached the Public Domain after the expiry of some mostly very lengthy copyright terms. Fan fiction is just that. I myself am not a reader of it, though I hear that there are some stories of very high quality, though these are apparently more the exception. I would have thought such stories are not in competition with either Indie or Tradpub books. In fact quite the opposite. I imagine that fan fiction is a great promotional tool which satiates the voracious appetite for fanatical fans, who mostly buy new "official" books at top price as soon as they become available.

As someone who both regularly checks fadedpage for interesting PD books and reads fanfic, I have to say that this does effect book purchasing. In fact just yesterday I was realizing that there were genres which I now rarely read outside of fanfic and thus purchase much less frequently then in decades past.

In my case this has freed up money for buying other books (mostly nonfiction) but there are many fanfic authors/readers who write/read almost exclusively for visual media (movies/TV shows). They may not feel the need to buy books at all.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

#17 is one dollar more than the rest. But then most of the books are under your ten dollar threshold. It seems like it might be fair to the author to let this one pass.

$3 USD ($4.18 AUD) actually, as I really don't want to pay in excess of the approximate $8.50 USD I think they are worth.
I actually paid slightly different prices to those current ones.
And I never really wanted to pay what I did for number 19. I did that solely for my mum ... got it while I could in case it became dearer.

In any case, as I said in the other post, it's about more than just a few dollars extra for one ebook. It is about what giving in to pay that might do for the prices of the others. Because it is an odd price, I am worried about why?

For what it's worth, Precious and Grace is currently showing a price of $9.99 at Amazon US (I believe you said that is where you buy your ebooks).

Every book in the series is marked at the same price of $9.99 except for the first book ($7.99) and the latest book ($12.99).

Yes, I have seen that disparity before.
They sell to me in USD at AUD prices.
So us Aussies pay more. The price I pay is equivalent to what I would pay at the Aussie Amazon store, so no real saving to get from US store. There are a couple of benefits to using the US store instead, but none are price ... and I miss out on many Aussie based bargains.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

But for this example, the guy has written at least 18 books you've considered worth a purchase.

Actually, I have purchased over 60 of his books. Read about 8 or 9 of them so far.

CORRECTION
Just going back through my records, I paid $8.96 USD for number 16 and only
$3.99 for number 18. In fact, because I only paid $3.99 USD for number 18, I was prepared to pay $10.62 USD for number 19. That and because it was just over my $10 USD limit.

Once again though, I draw a limit, to not encourage over-pricing. Yes it is great I got number 18 for a super bargain price, but I am not getting sucked into whatever games they may be playing.

Perhaps 17 has not gone down in price because they charged so little for number 18?

If I recall rightly, number 18 was only that price for a few hours, and I happened to check at the right moment.

EDIT
Before I started buying his books as ebooks, I was paying around $14.99 to $15.99 AUD at local stores for the paperbacks in that series ... sometimes less. So I remind you that for number 17 it is currently $16.85 AUD as an ebook.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by gmw

Surely a wish list item indicates people are interested in reading it when it is cheaper, but a reseller might decide it means people are interested and will eventually get sick of waiting for it to come down in price.

Indeed. It certainly bears thinking about, maybe even worrying over for the future.

[Timboli]

Okay, here is the one that irks and troubles me the most.

I'm a big fan of Terry Brooks, and have bought 43 of his books, 7 of those as ebooks.
I have been reading him since Sword Of Shannara was first released in AUS as a paperback.

The first ebooks I bought, were novellas or short stories, back in 2013. Then in 2015 I decided to buy all remaining Shannara novels to come, as ebooks as well. It seemed the smart thing to do, and I bought the first of a trilogy, The High Druid's Blade, for $9.02 USD at that time. It was $13.33 USD when I first put it on my list, and got as high as $13.65 USD. I waited for the second and third ebooks, to come down to a fair price.
The Darkling Child, which was $13.75 USD when I put it on my wishlist on the 15/01/2015, has never done so, and the closest it got was $11.66 on the 19/01/2016. Currently $12.16 ($17.15 AUD). The highest it has been was $13.98 USD.

The Sorcerer's Daughter, which was $13.10 USD when I put it on my wishlist on the 28/04/2016, has never done so, and the closest it got was $12.19 on the 26/12/2016. Currently $23.36 USD ($32.94 AUD), but has often been over $26 and as high as $26.76 USD on the 31/01/2018.

That third ebook in the series, as you can see, is shockingly over-priced and I have no idea why. Especially as the American price last I looked was $7.99 USD for Americans.

So what is going on? What game is the publisher playing? Did they stuff up something and need to recoup the cost maybe? Or is it just some evil experiment with Aussies?

Really rather annoying, and when I saw the large paperback (trade) version during a rare visit to a discount books store for $9.99 AUD, I said stuff them and bought it. After all, it isn't like I haven't got most of his books in physical form (paperbacks, trade and hardcovers). I am still really annoyed however, and that second over-priced ebook can wait till hell freezes over if it never comes down to a fair price. I wanted all ebooks, and they forced me to do otherwise, and now I have two thirds of a mismatched trilogy.

As a comparison since then, I have bought 3 more ebooks of Terry Brooks, the third being a pre-order and the final 4th yet to come.
I paid.
The Black Elfstone: Book One of the Fall of Shannara $9.20
The Skaar Invasion: Book Two of the Fall of Shannara $10.94
The Stiehl Assassin: Book Three of the Fall of Shannara $10.62 (pre-order)

Most of his other ebooks are around $9.20 USD or less.

[ZodWallop]

Pardon me for reassembling your message, but...

Originally Posted by Timboli

Actually, I have purchased over 60 of his books.

Before I started buying his books as ebooks, I was paying around $14.99 to $15.99 AUD at local stores for the paperbacks in that series...

I paid $8.96 USD for number 16 and only $3.99 for number 18. In fact, because I only paid $3.99 USD for number 18, I was prepared to pay $10.62 USD for number 19. That and because it was just over my $10 USD limit.

So in general, you are paying less per book (your earlier message indicated that you pay about $9.00 per book), in some instances, you pay far less, like when you got a deal at $4.

Even the 'expensive' book is $12. So less than you were paying for paper copies. Using what I gleaned from your messages, I honestly don't know what you are complaining about.

I think you are worrying far too much about individual book prices while missing the overall picture: you are saving money on a book by book basis. Sometimes you save more, sometimes you save less.