Moral and Ethical Norms Regarding Book Sharing

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Reprehensible. I'm on the side of the fence that says removing DRM from my ebooks is okay -- I have unfond memories of companies shutting down their DRM servers leaving me with useless chunks of data, the last one being when Microsoft turned off their DRM servers for Microsoft Reader. My opinion is that removing DRM from borrowed books is not morally acceptable -- they are a time limited loan and not your ebook.

I have always earned a small part of my living from creative efforts. I know the lousy feeling in the pit of the stomach when I find someone using a photo of mine commercially without payment to me. Or if some photo blog site thinks I should write for them for free.

Sometimes, if you push back you'll get paid, sometimes you won't. In my youth, I was better at rationalizing my baser behavior, but any more I just can't do unto others that which I don't want done unto me.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

I have always earned a small part of my living from creative efforts. I know the lousy feeling in the pit of the stomach when I find someone using a photo of mine commercially without payment to me. Or if some photo blog site thinks I should write for them for free.

Sometimes, if you push back you'll get paid, sometimes you won't. In my youth, I was better at rationalizing my baser behavior, but any more I just can't do unto others that which I don't want done unto me.

Back in the late 90's, I put together an inspirational newsletter. I used Chicken Soup for the Soul, Belief something or other, etc. I also gave full credit to wherever I had copied from. I had contacted everyone I wanted to use first. They all gave their permission as long as I credited them.
Didn't last long. Way too much work.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by cromag

If you lend your ereader to a friend with the book there is only one copy of the book, and you lose access to it while your friend has it.

If you strip DRM and give a copy to your friend there are two copies of the book. You both have access.

Not if the eBook is side loaded. Then you still have a copy. I cannot see anyone deleting a book from their Calibre library just to be able to loan a book. Plus, there's a chance there's a copy in the ADE, nook, and/or K4PC libraries. Also, if the eBook has no DRM, then the person you lend your Reader to can make a copy to keep.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't differentiate (RE morality) between DRM removal of "purchased" books vs "library" books.The potential for abuse is equal in my eyes. It all boils down to the ethics of the individual doing it. If I believe that people can strip DRM from their "purchased" books and not share them with thousands of their close internet friends, then I trust that some people are capable of honoring the terms of a library loan--even if they remove DRM for the purpose of format-shifting.

I firmly believe that the removal of DRM from personal purchases has led to many, many more pirated ebooks and copyright-violating loans than the removal of DRM from library books ever will.

"Honest" folk are honest. And nefarious folk aren't signing up for library cards and joining wait-lists to steal books. You can't say one way does no harm while simultaneously assuming the other way can't ever be done responsibly. Evil is in the eye of the evil-doer and nowhere else.

It's been a number of years before I looked at the dark net, but my understanding is that very few pirated ebooks come from purchases where the DRM is removed. Most come from scanned books. I do know that at one time that Eric Flint said that it was rare to see any of the Websubscription ebooks on the dark net.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It's been a number of years before I looked at the dark net, but my understanding is that very few pirated ebooks come from purchases where the DRM is removed. Most come from scanned books.

That was the old days. These days it's full of commercial ebooks liberated with the exact same tools that "honest folk" use to back up their purchases. Scanning is relegated to when there is no ebook available.

[crane3]

My feeling one should be able to "share" with one's self. If the person has multiple tablets/ereaders, that person should be able to read the book on any tablet at will & not limited by the DRM virus.

In fact, one should be able to read the book with whichever ereader app the person wants at any time; this will allow the person to see if a reader app would be better than the current preferred reader. This was also a reason why I decided to disinfect the DRM on my books when I was not able to check out Moon+ Reader even tho the tablet (nook hd+) had a "system" setting for Adobe; turned out that Adobe setting only applied to the nook app........

I now find that the reader apps that don't support DRM are much better for me than the reader apps that "support" the DRM virus.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by crane3

My feeling one should be able to "share" with one's self. If the person has multiple tablets/ereaders, that person should be able to read the book on any tablet at will & not limited by the DRM virus.

In fact, one should be able to read the book with whichever ereader app the person wants at any time; this will allow the person to see if a reader app would be better than the current preferred reader. This was also a reason why I decided to disinfect the DRM on my books when I was not able to check out Moon+ Reader even tho the tablet (nook hd+) had a "system" setting for Adobe; turned out that Adobe setting only applied to the nook app........

I now find that the reader apps that don't support DRM are much better for me than the reader apps that "support" the DRM virus.

Even with DRM: I can read books I buy at Amazon on up to 6 devices.

I could also read epubs from Kobo on my device and my desktop (at the time). I could also read them on the Kobo app on my tablet.

DRM is not a virus. Oh and don't disinfect with bleach when you have a respiratory infection. Or do and enjoy the two week nap that comes with chlorine induced pneumonia.

[crane3]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Even with DRM: I can read books I buy at Amazon on up to 6 devices.

I could also read epubs from Kobo on my device and my desktop (at the time). I could also read them on the Kobo app on my tablet.

DRM is not a virus. Oh and don't disinfect with bleach when you have a respiratory infection. Or do and enjoy the two week nap that comes with chlorine induced pneumonia.

Can you read the DRM'ed Amazon book with Moon+ Reader or Coolreader? Not sure you can read the DRM'ed book with Bookari now as it doesn't recognize the Overdrive book format even tho Bookari has a setting to enter an Adobe ID.

From my perspective, DRM is a virus but for others, it is Malware.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Oh and don't disinfect with bleach when you have a respiratory infection. Or do and enjoy the two week nap that comes with chlorine induced pneumonia.

Really? Good to know if true. I've never heard about it before. We use bleach at a local shelter for disinfecting sometimes (it kills the parvovirus, among other things). I don't remember if I've ever used it while having a respiratory infection, though.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Really? Good to know if true. I've never heard about it before. We use bleach at a local shelter for disinfecting sometimes (it kills the parvovirus, among other things). I don't remember if I've ever used it while having a respiratory infection, though.

I learned that when I called poison control. That is what they told me I had. Feel free to google it.
I was in microbiology at the time so exposed to 10% solution 2 days a week.

I am still sensitive to chlorine. I figured allergy but that wasn't it.

[Klecks]

Originally Posted by crane3

My feeling one should be able to "share" with one's self. If the person has multiple tablets/ereaders, that person should be able to read the book on any tablet at will & not limited by the DRM virus.

In fact, one should be able to read the book with whichever ereader app the person wants at any time; this will allow the person to see if a reader app would be better than the current preferred reader. This was also a reason why I decided to disinfect the DRM on my books when I was not able to check out Moon+ Reader even tho the tablet (nook hd+) had a "system" setting for Adobe; turned out that Adobe setting only applied to the nook app........

I now find that the reader apps that don't support DRM are much better for me than the reader apps that "support" the DRM virus.

Here in germany most publishers decided to forego Adobe DRM.
They rather use social DRM (Watermark) these days. Which means you can use every reading software you want without to bother Alf, but they tell you "We have marked the book. We dont tell you how. The mark is not removable. If you upload the book to a pirates side - we will know it's yours." I'm really OK with that.

Most epubs I bought this year had social DRM or no DRM. I mostly needed ADE for some english books (non-german publishers) and library books.
But it depends on publisher and vendor.
The vendors of the tolino alliance and many others use that social DRM - except Kobo. Somehow it seems Kobo has failed to keep up with the change, they still cling to hard DRM. In my opinion it is a big minus for Kobo (and Amazon).

Perhaps Kobo and publishers in other countries will follow the lead some day?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Klecks

Perhaps Kobo and publishers in other countries will follow the lead some day?

I certainly hope so. Tor reported no drop in sales after dropping DRM some years ago.

I really don't understand why the big English publishers are still willing to pay the Adobe Tax.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I certainly hope so. Tor reported no drop in sales after dropping DRM some years ago.

I really don't understand why the big English publishers are still willing to pay the Adobe Tax.

Well, they still want DRM on Amazon.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I certainly hope so. Tor reported no drop in sales after dropping DRM some years ago.

I really don't understand why the big English publishers are still willing to pay the Adobe Tax.

Once an idea has been firmly established, people tend to hold on to that idea regardless of the evidence.

[nabsltd]

Originally Posted by Klecks

They rather use social DRM (Watermark) these days. Which means you can use every reading software you want without to bother Alf, but they tell you "We have marked the book. We dont tell you how. The mark is not removable. If you upload the book to a pirates side - we will know it's yours."

EPUBs are so simple that it's impossible to "watermark" them in a way that can't be removed trivially. I'm sure the threat does keep honest people honest, but it does nothing to keep dishonest people from sharing the book after removing the watermark. In that way, it's just like DRM.