There is a database containing 25 million books and nobody is allowed to read them

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Copyright cannot be "renewed"; it exists for a fixed time beyond the author's death, and then expires. One does not "obtain" a copyright - it automatically comes into being the instant the author sets pen to paper (or whatever the medium is). Likewise, there's no choice about whether or not a work enters the public domain - it just happens.

That all depends on where you live, and when the work was written. Copyright laws change all the time, or don't exist at all in some countries. In the US, there is a chart that shows when the copyright for a book expires, based on when it was written.

http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

The US use to have a requirement for copyright registration and offered the ability to renew the initial 27 years copyright term for another 27 years. Just as a note, a book that was published before 1977 and did not include a copyright notice is in public domain in the US since they failed to follow the rules for copyright in the US.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That all depends on where you live, and when the work was written. Copyright laws change all the time, or don't exist at all in some countries. In the US, there is a chart that shows when the copyright for a book expires, based on when it was written.

I'm referring to books written today in countries which are signatories to the Berne Convention.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

So you are in a sense telling me that Oxmoor House should keep " Southern Living Christmas£9 2016 cookbook special edition presented exclusively by Dillard's" on sale from Christmas season 2016 to forever.

That happens to be a limited edition sold by only Dillard's and only for Christmas 2016.
The book was $10 and the proceeds benefit the Ronald McDonald House.

Note: I shop at Dillard's about once a year. I typically spend $10.

I really don't see where the company has an obligation to make that book available to me after that season is over.

At one time, keeping a book in print was expensive and there wasn't room in the book stores for them all, so the norm was to reprint the book every 7 years or so. Generally, publishers might keep a stock of books stored somewhere, at least until the IRS changed the rules. That's really not the case anymore. It doesn't cost much at all to keep books in print, either electronically or print on demand, and thus provides little burden to the copyright holder.

While you may see no obligation to make that book available, I don't see where society should have an obligation to keep people from making copies of that book in such a case. We live in a society and it's not all I take, you give. Copyright isn't property, and is subject to changes in the law to adjust the bargain between the copyright holder and society.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

While you may see no obligation to make that book available, I don't see where society should have an obligation to keep people from making copies of that book in such a case.

Because that obligation is associated with the very definition of "copyright" - the right to control who can make copies. The copyright holder is entirely within their rights to say that nobody can make copies, if that is their wish.

[Froide]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Copyright cannot be "renewed"; it exists for a fixed time beyond the author's death, and then expires. One does not "obtain" a copyright - it automatically comes into being the instant the author sets pen to paper (or whatever the medium is). Likewise, there's no choice about whether or not a work enters the public domain - it just happens.

• True, copyright does come into being immediately upon a work's creation (as I stated).
• Also, instead of writing "obtained", it would have been more accurate to use the word "registered"; thank you for pointing out my lapse there.
• Regarding copyright renewal, in the USA and some other countries, it is/has been possible to renew some copyrights. As pwalker wrote:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That all depends on where you live, and when the work was written. Copyright laws change all the time, or don't exist at all in some countries. In the US, there is a chart that shows when the copyright for a book expires, based on when it was written.

http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

The US use to have a requirement for copyright registration and offered the ability to renew the initial 27 years copyright term for another 27 years. Just as a note, a book that was published before 1977 and did not include a copyright notice is in public domain in the US since they failed to follow the rules for copyright in the US.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Froide

In the USA, it IS possible to renew (some) copyrights.

US copyright law is singularly odd .

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because that obligation is associated with the very definition of "copyright" - the right to control who can make copies. The copyright holder is entirely within their rights to say that nobody can make copies, if that is their wish.

It might currently be legal, doesn't mean that it's a right though, nor particularly smart. While perhaps in England, where the tradition is more of a royal grant with no strings attached, things are different, in the US, copyright is historically more of a social bargain.

In the US, the moral concept behind copyright is not strongly held, except of course by copyright holders. One sees this as the younger generation downloads music, video and books from download sites without really being concerned if it's under copyright or not. The movie and music industries were the driving force behind the US signing the Berne treaty. When the music industry went after individuals who downloaded music illegally, there was a huge blow back from the public at large.

There is a very strong belief in the US that information should be available, one of the reasons that the US has such a strong system of public libraries. It's also one of the reason that Google's scanning project, which is pretty obviously a violation of the clear text of copyright law, was found legal by the US court system.

The idea that all books should be scanned and available is a very compelling idea in the US. If it weren't for the movie and music industry, who want other countries to protect US copyrights for movies and music, its pretty likely that someone would have put some sort of compromise to permit it into law, much like the current compromise that allows music to be played over the radio.

It really is a pity. That database really could be a new library of Alexandria.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

US copyright law is singularly odd .

As I said, US copyright comes from a very different mind set and tradition than European or English specifically copyright. There has always been a balance between making sure the author is able to sell his product and making sure that information is widely available. While music, video and books are thrown together in the law, over time, they have been treated very, very differently and are thought of differently.

TV and music are available free over the airwaves. Most books are freely available in libraries. That is set in the public's mind. That is one of the reasons that one rarely if every sees individuals charged with copyright violation for making personal copies in the US and why the music industry's attempt to go after individual downloaders was so disastrous from a PR perspective.

In many other countries, there is no copyright tradition and even if they are signers of the Berne treaty, copyright enforcement is for all practical purposes non existent. That is one of the reason that so many pirate sites are in Russia.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It really is a pity. That database really could be a new library of Alexandria.

There's already a new library of Alexandria:

http://www.bibalex.org/en/Default

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by crich70

Ah but which libraries have which books? And which books are on acid pree paper and which aren't? And how many copies ae there on average of a given book? With digital copies you don't have to worry about the book vanishing if the paper crumbles, gets waterlogged, or burns. There have been similar problems with other media. OTR (Old Time Radio) for example. Most of the extant 'copies' of OTR programs come from people recording a copy while listening to the original broadcast of the show. Yet Conde Nast claims it owns many of them despite not having existed when they were broadcast and despite their existence today only being possible because private citizens preserved the shows themselves.

This is something that worries me. There are books that are exceedingly rare. The kind where, if you search hard, you might find only one or two copies available for sale if you are lucky. And some books, ZERO.

Every year, rare books get destroyed by assorted natural disasters. Every year, rare books get tossed in the trash by someone disposing of an estate who needs to get it done soonest and thinks a ratty old book can't be worth anything.

How many copies will be left by the time they are in the public domain? Who will remember these books and make an effort to find and publish them then?





Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Cinisajoy]

To me: copyright is a way to protect the creator from being ripped off by some unscrupulous person that is out to make a quick buck off someone else's hard word.

It sounds like some in this thread are saying artists don't need money. Or they should be generous and let everyone profit but not themselves.
To those people I want to ask would you do your job for free. Or even better, would you do your job and then let your boss pay someone else for the work you did?
If the answer is no, then why should the creators of books be any different?

Oh and on the cookbook I previously mentioned, you can get a new and different version in December.
So if you want a holiday cookbook from Southern Living you just have to have a little patience.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There's already a new library of Alexandria:

http://www.bibalex.org/en/Default

When I use library of Alexandria, I tend to mean the idea behind the original library, i.e. a storehouse that held all available knowledge. I'm pretty sure that isn't the point behind your link. Of course, the original library of Alexandria didn't contain all available knowledge, and perhaps that wasn't the actual purpose of the library, but it certainly has become symbolic of having all available knowledge at your finger tips.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

When I use library of Alexandria, I tend to mean the idea behind the original library, i.e. a storehouse that held all available knowledge. I'm pretty sure that isn't the point behind your link. Of course, the original library of Alexandria didn't contain all available knowledge, and perhaps that wasn't the actual purpose of the library, but it certainly has become symbolic of having all available knowledge at your finger tips.

We pretty much have all knowledge now at our fingertips without ever leaving home.
While we may not have ALL books available, I would almost bet money that one could find information on any topic that pops in their head. Oh and usually on the road too if one has a smart phone.
It is called the internet without which we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

When I use library of Alexandria, I tend to mean the idea behind the original library, i.e. a storehouse that held all available knowledge. I'm pretty sure that isn't the point behind your link.

It actually is. Do take a look the website. It's an absolutely fascinating place and aims very much to both store and disseminate the world's knowledge. Well worth a visit should you happen to be in Alexandria. It's the only place I've seen the kind of book scanner that Google use actually in action, which was very interesting.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by graycyn

This is something that worries me. There are books that are exceedingly rare. The kind where, if you search hard, you might find only one or two copies available for sale if you are lucky. And some books, ZERO.

Every year, rare books get destroyed by assorted natural disasters. Every year, rare books get tossed in the trash by someone disposing of an estate who needs to get it done soonest and thinks a ratty old book can't be worth anything.

How many copies will be left by the time they are in the public domain? Who will remember these books and make an effort to find and publish them then?





Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Back when copyright was limited to 28 years, plus a renewal of 28 years, there was little chance of significant works being lost. With copyright extended to life plus 90, there is a great deal of chance that many works will be lost in time.

Let me give an example. I have a paperback, A World Called Camelot by Arthur H Landis, published in 1976 from an earlier serial Let There be Magick under the name of James B Keaveny. Landis died in 1986. He does not appear to have any near kin. The book was last printed in 1982 by DAW. Odds are pretty good that by the time the book goes into public domain, both the book and the author will be forgotten. It can be found on scribd and I suspect it's probably on some of the pirate sites, and I believe that it's one of the books that google scanned (I don't see it there, but his other books are there).


Of course, the fact that a work by a dead, relatively obscure author is not available probably means little to the world as a whole. It's not like the cure for cancer is buried in the book. But my point is that it's needless. It's a situation where no one wins and everyone loses.