Scrambling copyright ebooks to help troubleshoot problems ??? - Page 4

HarryT · 10-16-2015, 03:12 PM

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I wanted to talk to the rest of the moderating team first to ensure that I had my facts straight.

You can take this as official MR policy when I say that we have never permitted people to upload copyrighted material for diagnostic purposes, whether password-protected or otherwise. DiapDealer, who is a long-time moderator of the Sigil forum, tells me that in that forum they always make it absolutely clear to people who may be experiencing problems with books that they must not upload any copyrighted files (unless, of course, it's the author who is uploading it). Your statement that:

Quote:

moderators accompany their warnings about not uploading copyrighted books, with instructions to password-protect the book before uploading, in order to comply with the Forum guidelines.

is simply untrue.

To reiterate, we never have, do not, and never will allow copyrighted books to be uploaded to MR without the copyright holder's permission, and the presence or absence of a password on the upload does not alter that policy. This is the policy of the moderating team, not the opinion of me or any other individual moderator.

Uploading a short sample of material is of course, "fair use", and is permissible.

I hope this clarifies the matter to everyone's satisfaction.

jackie_w · 10-16-2015, 04:14 PM

@HarryT,

So in words of one syllable even I can understand ... the MR policy is that a copyrighted book with all its contents obscured is still a copyrighted book and therefore must never be uploaded to MR?

P.S. I wasn't expecting an official answer so quickly so no need to apologise for the delay

Thank you for your time.

HarryT · 10-16-2015, 04:16 PM

Jackie,

The team is discussing your question and will get back to you shortly with an official answer. Thanks for your patience.

jackie_w · 10-16-2015, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Jackie,

The team is discussing your question and will get back to you shortly with an official answer. Thanks for your patience.

Oh sorry, I misunderstood I thought post #46 was your answer to my question.

There's no rush on my part, I was doing a coding exercise anyway (I know how to party on a Friday night

) and prefer to use real-life "problems" whenever possible. It makes me think harder.

HarryT · 10-16-2015, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Oh sorry, I misunderstood I thought post #46 was your answer to my question.

No, the previous post was a response to Mr Schwartz's thoughts on uploading password-protected ZIP files.

kovidgoyal · 10-16-2015, 11:32 PM

@HarryT: IMO uploading a book for debugging purposes, while keeping it only privately shareable is just as much fair use as uploading an extract from one. In fact, I would argue that it is much more unambiguously fair use, since when dealing with extracts there is the question of how much of an extract is allowed, 1%, 10%, 90%? before it loses fair use protection. And MR has always allowed extracts. In fact, the MR server could auto-delete such attachments after a period of a couple of days, for added safety.

@jackie_w: Indeed, using PMs is a tad more cumbersome than sharing publicly, but, creating a calibre plugin, will limit the solution to only users of calibre, which is fine by me, personally, but I was trying for an MR wide solution

MGlitch · 10-17-2015, 12:06 AM

I can't see how a fully scrambled text would still be considered a derived work in anything other than the letter of the law, and even then it's with a very poor reading of the law. Even if one were to take the scrambled ebook back through the scrambler it would take essentially infinite cycles to recreate the original text, copyrights exist to protect the rights holder. How does a text which, aside from matching in word count and letter count of those words, harm any rights holder if the output is in no known language, has no decryption key, and thus no longer bears any sembalance to the intellectual content of the original text?

K jrns nr ngrfnt zbtf ja er lphtbuferg loer zatfhs'h cm qiefunxreif mz k laowy

Can you tell me what the above sentence is?

doubleshuffle · 10-17-2015, 12:26 AM

Harry, would you still see it as a derived work if the letters of the original weren't changed to random letters, but to always the same letter(s)?

For instance,

"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife."

could be transformed to

"Jj jj jjjjj jjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjj, jjjj j jjjjjj jjj jj jjjjjjjjjj jj j jjjj jjjjjjj jjjj jj jj jjjj jj j jjjj."

Or, looking much better:

"Be nn e tbenn etbennetbe nnetbennetbe, nnet b ennetb enn et bennetbenn et b enne tbennet benn et be nnet be n netn."

There's no way to reconstruct the original, is there? So how could it be copyrighted? The same goes for the original plug-in as well, of course, but perhaps it isn't that obvious...

Although, that would be basically the same as using Lorem ipsum, which has been mentioned before in this thread, I think...

kovidgoyal · 10-17-2015, 12:27 AM

And on the issue of scrambled works being derived works, let me just point out, that by that logic every book is a derived work of every other book, since there exists an algorithm that maps every book to every other book, and there is no way to prove that such an algorithm was not used in creating any given book.

I'm pretty sure that a work can only qualify as a derived work if it bears some resemblance to the original work, regardless of what process was used to create the new work. In other words, copyright law says nothing about the process used to derive works, only about the end result of the process.

meeera · 10-17-2015, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

I suppose I'm guilty of assuming that the Publisher's apply DRM encryption to those files they wish to keep protected. If they deliberately leave them unencrypted it implies they don't care. Again, a practical personal opinion not a legal one.

It's definitely not a legal one, that's for sure. Copyright protection exists the moment an original work is laid down in tangible (including electronic) form. There is no requirement for DRM or encryption or anything else.

Jellby · 10-17-2015, 03:43 AM

Moderator Notice
This interesting discussion is not Kobo-specific, as far as I can see. I think it fits much better in the Workshop forum, therefore I move it there (here)

jackie_w · 10-17-2015, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

@jackie_w: Indeed, using PMs is a tad more cumbersome than sharing publicly, but, creating a calibre plugin, will limit the solution to only users of calibre, which is fine by me, personally, but I was trying for an MR wide solution

It will be limited to those who have calibre installed anyway (even if they don't use it as a library) because it relies heavily on your container functions for safely manipulating epub/azw3 and also calibre's included Python functionality for those who don't have their own full Python installation (the majority of Windows users). No point in me trying to re-invent the wheel and doing it badly.

I'm currently using your calibre-debug -e option with a single Python script plus a Windows .bat file to drag-drop the ebook onto.

Should the MR powers-that-be decide it's OK to pursue this project at all I'm hoping some of the posters who've taken an interest in this thread will help debate the pros and cons of drag-drop vs proper calibre plugin. I'll be happy to do the plugin-isation if that's the better option, but there's no real point having the debate right now.

jackie_w · 10-17-2015, 09:07 AM

@Jellby, You're correct, of course

My only excuse is that there's a small band of 'usual suspects' in the Kobo forum who are the ones who end up trying to troubleshoot the 'my Kobo won't read this book properly' cries for help.

jackie_w · 10-17-2015, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

For instance,

"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife."

could be transformed to

"Jj jj jjjjj jjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjj, jjjj j jjjjjj jjj jj jjjjjjjjjj jj j jjjj jjjjjjj jjjj jj jj jjjj jj j jjjj."

The barcode look! In fact the 'single character option' might not be a bad idea. It would be much more obvious to a casual passerby that there was no chance of decrypting the content.

Any user looking for help with a spellchecking or hyphenation problem would be out of luck, but unfortunately that's also true for my original scrambling method.

Jellby · 10-17-2015, 09:58 AM

Even if it is finally decided that books scrambled in this way should not be posted in these forums, I think this functionality would be useful anyway, the world is not limited to MR forums.

Another possible scrambling method would be simply replacing each word by some pre-defined word (existing or not) with the same number of letters.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Sony ereader troubleshoot	chrisms	Sony Reader	3	10-02-2013 02:08 PM
Out of copyright ebooks/writers you'd most like to see digitized?	pstjmack	Reading Recommendations	18	09-14-2012 08:46 PM
whispersync not working: can anyone help me troubleshoot?	rheostaticsfan	Amazon Kindle	4	10-27-2011 08:09 AM
troubleshoot battery life	kkinser	Amazon Kindle	2	04-18-2011 09:05 PM
The copyright issues of fan fiction eBooks	Kirok	Lounge	33	12-08-2008 06:54 PM

10-16-2015, 04:14 PM	#47
jackie_w Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,212 Karma: 16534894 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3	@HarryT, So in words of one syllable even I can understand ... the MR policy is that a copyrighted book with all its contents obscured is still a copyrighted book and therefore must never be uploaded to MR? P.S. I wasn't expecting an official answer so quickly so no need to apologise for the delay Thank you for your time.

10-16-2015, 04:16 PM	#48
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Jackie, The team is discussing your question and will get back to you shortly with an official answer. Thanks for your patience.

10-16-2015, 11:32 PM	#51
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 43,866 Karma: 22666666 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	@HarryT: IMO uploading a book for debugging purposes, while keeping it only privately shareable is just as much fair use as uploading an extract from one. In fact, I would argue that it is much more unambiguously fair use, since when dealing with extracts there is the question of how much of an extract is allowed, 1%, 10%, 90%? before it loses fair use protection. And MR has always allowed extracts. In fact, the MR server could auto-delete such attachments after a period of a couple of days, for added safety. @jackie_w: Indeed, using PMs is a tad more cumbersome than sharing publicly, but, creating a calibre plugin, will limit the solution to only users of calibre, which is fine by me, personally, but I was trying for an MR wide solution

10-17-2015, 12:06 AM	#52
MGlitch Wizard Posts: 2,841 Karma: 22003124 Join Date: Aug 2014 Device: Kobo Forma, Kobo Sage, Kobo Libra 2	I can't see how a fully scrambled text would still be considered a derived work in anything other than the letter of the law, and even then it's with a very poor reading of the law. Even if one were to take the scrambled ebook back through the scrambler it would take essentially infinite cycles to recreate the original text, copyrights exist to protect the rights holder. How does a text which, aside from matching in word count and letter count of those words, harm any rights holder if the output is in no known language, has no decryption key, and thus no longer bears any sembalance to the intellectual content of the original text? K jrns nr ngrfnt zbtf ja er lphtbuferg loer zatfhs'h cm qiefunxreif mz k laowy Can you tell me what the above sentence is?

10-17-2015, 12:26 AM	#53
doubleshuffle Unicycle Daredevil Posts: 13,924 Karma: 185041098 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Planet of the Pudding Brains Device: Aura HD (R.I.P. After six years the USB socket died.) tolino shine 3	Harry, would you still see it as a derived work if the letters of the original weren't changed to random letters, but to always the same letter(s)? For instance, "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife." could be transformed to "Jj jj jjjjj jjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjj, jjjj j jjjjjj jjj jj jjjjjjjjjj jj j jjjj jjjjjjj jjjj jj jj jjjj jj j jjjj." Or, looking much better: "Be nn e tbenn etbennetbe nnetbennetbe, nnet b ennetb enn et bennetbenn et b enne tbennet benn et be nnet be n netn." There's no way to reconstruct the original, is there? So how could it be copyrighted? The same goes for the original plug-in as well, of course, but perhaps it isn't that obvious... Although, that would be basically the same as using Lorem ipsum, which has been mentioned before in this thread, I think...

10-17-2015, 12:27 AM	#54
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 43,866 Karma: 22666666 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	And on the issue of scrambled works being derived works, let me just point out, that by that logic every book is a derived work of every other book, since there exists an algorithm that maps every book to every other book, and there is no way to prove that such an algorithm was not used in creating any given book. I'm pretty sure that a work can only qualify as a derived work if it bears some resemblance to the original work, regardless of what process was used to create the new work. In other words, copyright law says nothing about the process used to derive works, only about the end result of the process.

10-17-2015, 03:43 AM	#56
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,516 Karma: 18512745 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	Moderator Notice This interesting discussion is not Kobo-specific, as far as I can see. I think it fits much better in the Workshop forum, therefore I move it there (here)

10-17-2015, 09:07 AM	#58
jackie_w Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,212 Karma: 16534894 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3	@Jellby, You're correct, of course My only excuse is that there's a small band of 'usual suspects' in the Kobo forum who are the ones who end up trying to troubleshoot the 'my Kobo won't read this book properly' cries for help.

10-17-2015, 09:58 AM	#60
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,516 Karma: 18512745 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	Even if it is finally decided that books scrambled in this way should not be posted in these forums, I think this functionality would be useful anyway, the world is not limited to MR forums. Another possible scrambling method would be simply replacing each word by some pre-defined word (existing or not) with the same number of letters.

Advert

Advert