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Old 02-04-2017, 05:54 AM   #31
Tex2002ans
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Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Public Domain is Life+70. Did the author die before 1946? If no, then the book is not public domain.

[...]

The book was published in 1946. Therefore it is not in public domain. The information is public domain. but the pictures and other stuff isn't.
Not necessarily:

https://collections.stanford.edu/cop...e?forward=home

Quote:
The period from 1923-1963 is of special interest for US copyrights, as works published after January 1, 1964 had their copyrights automatically renewed by statute, and works published before 1923 have generally fallen into the public domain. Between those dates, a renewal registration was required to prevent the expiration of copyright, however determining whether a work's registration has been renewed is a challenge. Renewals received by the Copyright Office after 1977 are searchable in an online database, but renewals received between 1950 and 1977 were announced and distributed only in a semi-annual print publication. The Copyright Office does not have a machine-searchable source for this renewal information, and the only public access is through the card catalog in their DC offices.
It looks like SigilBear's was originally published in New York in 1938, so it definitely falls in this unclear period. More thorough research would have to be done, but there is a very high chance it has already fallen into the Public Domain.

I searched for Author: Shankle in the Copyright Renewal Database and nothing showed up... which is a strong indication it was NOT renewed...

Although here lies the problem: you can't be exactly 100% sure, so many publishers steer clear of trying to republish/digitize these books (0.001% chance of getting sued is too high for them).

OR they won't even waste the resources on a more thorough Copyright Search. As an example, the US Copyright Office states:

Quote:
The U.S. Copyright Office offers a search service for persons interested in investigating whether a work is under copyright protection and, if so, the facts of the copyright. For a fee of $200 per hour or fraction thereof (2 hour minimum), the office will search its public records and provide a report of its findings.
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Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
You don't need to buy an ISBN for your Amazon ebook.

Might I recommend you do more research into the ebook world before diving off the deep end head first.
There is a (I believe strong) case for assigning ISBNs anyway:

http://the-digital-reader.com/2016/1...ase-for-isbns/

And it is perfectly legitimate if SigilBear wants to have ISBNs for each separate edition of the book.

Typically publishers have these ISBNs:
  • Print (Hardcover/Softcover/Large Print)
  • ebook

but there is no reason why you couldn't subdivide that further by having ebook split into:
  • MOBI (Amazon)
  • EPUB (B&N/Kobo/Everyone)
  • EPUB enhanced with Audio/Video (iBooks)
  • PDF (it is arguable if this is different from Print)

although I can't say I have ever seen it go that far in person. But the International ISBN Agency does mention it in their "Guidelines for assignment to e-books":

Quote:
What is a separate digital publication?

In order to reach the widest possible market, a publisher or retailer may make a particular e-book title available as multiple product options. Although the editorial content will be the same, if a specific device or software is required to read the e-book or different user functionality is provided (e.g. copy, print, lend etc.) then each time this changes it will be a distinct product. Each distinct product that is available must be identified by its own ISBN as it is a separate publication. Thus, a separate publication is normally defined by a combination of file format and Digital Rights Management software.

What if the e-books are all in the same format (e.g. EPUB)?

If the different versions are in the same format and use the same DRM software (e.g. Adobe ACS4) with substantially the same settings and are interoperable on different devices or software, then a single ISBN should be used. If, however, the same DRM software is used on two versions but with significantly different settings (e.g. one allows printing but the other does not) then each version should have its own separate ISBN.

If proprietary DRM is used that ties a version to a specific platform, device or software then, if ISBNs are assigned, separate ISBNs should be used for each such version.

What about proprietary formats (e.g. Amazon Kindle)?

Some retailers are the sole providers of e-books in a proprietary format that can only be bought through their website. An example is Kindle format e-books which are only available from Amazon. In this particular case as there is one source of supply, the retailer does not require ISBNs and so it is not strictly necessary for the publisher to assign an ISBN to this particular version. Publishers can assign an ISBN if they wish, for example if it is useful for their own purposes or they want that version to be listed in third-party databases of available e-books .As these platforms are generally not interoperable, if ISBNs are assigned they must be unique to each version so as to avoid identification problems if those versions should later become available through third parties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Oh and if it was/is such a great reference, why hasn't anyone over the last 70+ years bothered with a reprint.
There is an absolute ton of fantastic culture that is never reprinted. See the Orphan Works problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_works

Side Note: Articles pop up on this problem all the time:

https://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=orphan+works

There are millions of books effected (not to mention all the other stuff: photographs, journal articles, letters, music, [...]).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
I was going by Brian's comment about 95 years.
And the OP did say it was reprinted in 1975.
Just because the book is reprinted/digitized doesn't mean the book is magically pulled from the Public Domain for another ~hundred years. It goes by original publication date.

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 02-04-2017 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:26 AM   #32
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Hi Tex.
I just don't want the OP to get into any trouble.
If I remember correctly, I also think he said the pictures were not that great in the first book.
If it was me, I would just redo the entire book.

Or more precisely, I don't want him to go to all the work just to find out he can't publish it.

Now who was it that said my cookbook would need hours and hours of work just to be a halfway decent ebook?
So I was listening.
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SigilBear View Post
I also found a scanned version at Google Books, though I can't find it now.
Seems as if a copy was also recently scanned/uploaded to the Internet Archive:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.167851

Quote:
Originally Posted by SigilBear View Post
Why do I need pictures that look good in grayscale? Don't all ebook viewing devices display color images?
No, e-ink is grayscale only... but the device would just take your color image -> display it in grayscale.

If you were creating your own State Flags book, just use full color images. Don't let this hold you back, especially in the case of flags (where colors bring just as much meaning as the symbols themselves).

Side Note: You may also want to look through the treasure trove of Wikimedia Commons. There are a ton of Public Domain images of any/all flags. For example:

Collection of some US State Flags: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...America#States
Pennsylvania: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...nnsylvania.svg
Alaska: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Alaska.svg
Hawaii: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Hawaii.svg
[...]

or you can visit individual Wikipedia pages of each state for some examples (seals, etc. etc.):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_new_york

Quote:
Originally Posted by SigilBear View Post
In summary, I think I've stumbled onto a unique opportunity. I'm extremely optimistic that my book will be well received; the only problem is navigating the maze so I can connect with libraries. I don't foresee any major problems selling my books via Amazon and iBooks. The second book will probably have a very large potential market, but I suspect the first book, largely because of its age, will appeal primarily to libraries.
Hmmm... I don't know the specifics of what libraries go through, but the latest discussion I can recall was this article from 2015:

http://the-digital-reader.com/2015/0...ublished-book/

Quote:
Wetta explained that a collection development librarian like herself only has a few hours a week to devote to buying books. And in library systems where collection development is just one of many primary duties, a librarian faces even tighter constraints.

As a result:

Quote:
It’s simply not efficient or cost-effective to acquire self-published books. They don’t often have existing records ready to add to the library’s catalog; these records have to be created. Self-published books might not be available from the library’s main vendor, who might do any number of tasks to make the book ready to be shelved in a library (a protective cover, property stamps, stickers to identify the proper location of the item, etc.). And of that work has to be done by library staff as an extra step if it is purchased by a different vendor (say, Amazon) and that’s only if the policies allow the library to do that (sometimes a library is restricted to specific vendors).
And that's not the only problem.

Even when a librarian wants to buy a self-published book, they are still constrained by a limited budget. The librarians need to make sure that the books they buy are in demand and of good quality.

That applies to all books, and not just self-published, but the latter are more difficult to quantify:

Quote:
It’s not that librarians are completely unwilling to buy self-published books, it’s just that the systems aren’t in place yet (or aren’t yet robust enough) to make it easy to evaluate the quality and to efficiently bring them to patrons.
The costs to create such a book are extremely high + the demand for such a book is extremely low.

And I suspect even if you did create an "ultimate, up-to-date, best State Flags book", it would languish just like the two books you mention (and in 80 years from now, someone would complain how your book had crappy/old images and didn't include info on states #51 and #52). :P

And who knows about the whole publisher situation (Reference book not published by an esteemed academic press? Straight in the garbage bin!). Expensive Textbooks + Academe is a very strange place.

Side Note: I recently took out a very expensive (~$300+) + rare economics book from the library... last time it was lent out: 1988. So in ~30 years only ONE person borrowed it. I suspect a book on the History of State Flags would be taken out at ~ the same rate (maybe even less), especially if quite a bit of this info can be found freely online. :P

* * *
Side Notes to Cinisajoy Below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Now who was it that said my cookbook would need hours and hours of work just to be a halfway decent ebook?
So I was listening.
Another type of book that is very resource intensive (lots of formatting + lots of pictures) + has a small market. You are closer to SigilBear than you think!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Or more precisely, I don't want him to go to all the work just to find out he can't publish it.
I don't know... I seemed to have sensed a lot of extra hostility/baggage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Or I do have a better idea for you.
Since you think this is such a great reference, rather than stealing someone else's work why don't you write your own reference book.
Digitizing/Republishing a Public Domain work is is no way "stealing".

And in the future, I would recommend avoiding this "stealing" word. IF the book was still under copyright, it would be "copyright infringement".

Some examples:

"Why It's Important Not To Call Copyright Infringement Theft": https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...13210998.shtml
"The Absurdity Of Comparing Copying To Stealing": https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...stealing.shtml
"Guess What? Copying Still Isn't Stealing": https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...stealing.shtml

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Old 02-04-2017, 09:20 PM   #34
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As stated by someone above, Google (and a lot of specialized databases on the Internet) has made a lot of previously standard lookup books obsolete, outdated or incomplete.
(Ask me about dictionaries, I'm a translator. :/) an old book on flags and state symbols; only!?
I dare to guess that unless it is a gem in heraldic history nobody gives a ©®@p
Have a look at symbols.com and tell me if you can beat that.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:16 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
Only if the copyright was renewed in 1974.

There are many books published after 1922 and before 1964 where copyright lapsed because it wasn't renewed.
That's what I thought.

Nevertheless, it is smart to be certain. I contacted the current publisher, and they still maintain it's in the public domain. But, just to be on the safe side, they gave me the contact information for the original publisher (which I thought had gone out of business).

So I contacted the original publisher but haven't heard from them yet.

It's been very confusing but very educational at the same time.

It also occurred to me that, even if it IS in the public domain, some of the bigger players might slam the door in my face unless I have written confirmation that I have permission.

In related news, I learned how to make videos recently and am going to create some videos to publicize my books on YouTube. I'm then going to try to sell my books directly before approaching Amazon, iBooks, etc.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Freeshadow View Post
As stated by someone above, Google (and a lot of specialized databases on the Internet) has made a lot of previously standard lookup books obsolete, outdated or incomplete.
(Ask me about dictionaries, I'm a translator. :/) an old book on flags and state symbols; only!?
I dare to guess that unless it is a gem in heraldic history nobody gives a ©®@p
Have a look at symbols.com and tell me if you can beat that.
Wow, that site has really grown up. I wasn't even aware that they had branched out to include "state symbols."

Still, I'm really not impressed. Their coverage of the symbols I checked out was actually very shallow and far from complete.

As for no one giving a crap, there are at least two websites focusing on state symbols that get tons of traffic. They obviously aren't being squeezed out by Symbols.com.

The Flag Bulletin once published an article revealing that flags ranked among the most popular encyclopedia. I can't remember the exact ranking, but it was amazingly high.

Symbols are far more complex than most people realize, and there are many different approaches. You can just relate the basics (a la symbols.com), tell the stories behind their creation (entire books have been written about individual state flags), stir up some controversy (e.g. the South's Confederate flags or Washington State's dollar-bill flag), or even promote new or improved symbols.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:43 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
Not necessarily:

https://collections.stanford.edu/cop...e?forward=home

It looks like SigilBear's was originally published in New York in 1938, so it definitely falls in this unclear period. More thorough research would have to be done, but there is a very high chance it has already fallen into the Public Domain.<snip>
Wow, thanks for all the great tips. That gives me a lot to work with.

It's interesting that that Indian website released the book I'm working on in PDF form just a couple weeks ago. I downloaded the torrent version but haven't figured out how to open it yet, so I don't know if it's an actual epub or not.

I should point out, if I haven't already mentioned it, that the book I'm working really isn't a big deal. I'm publishing it largely to promote my next book, which will be the definitive state symbols reference.

If I can sell just 100 copies of the first book, I'll be a happy camper, and I think there are easily a hundred collectors and hard core symbols fans who will buy it - if I can figure out how to connect with them.

In the meantime, I just thought of another potential problem. If I produce an ebook that's essentially an exact reproduction of the original, with the following exceptions:

1. The footnotes are reorganized as end notes at the end of each chapter
2. The book is annotated with my comments (though not many)
3. The book features nicer pictures, along with a few pictures that aren't in the original
4. The book is more nicely styled
5. The book includes an appendix with current lists of symbols
6. The table of contents and index are heavily modified
7. The new book has a damn nice cover

Will I be able to call it a "derivative" and slap a copyright on it? Either way, I'm going to include a notice that my book is based on a book that's in the public domain, but that all material added by me is copyrighted.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:39 PM   #38
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That's what I thought.


In related news, I learned how to make videos recently and am going to create some videos to publicize my books on YouTube. I'm then going to try to sell my books directly before approaching Amazon, iBooks, etc.
What do you mean by approaching Amazon?
You do not approach Amazon or iTunes.
You go here for Amazon.
https://kdp.amazon.com/signin?ref=az...seeall_kd_minC
You sign in with your Amazon account. You agree to the terms and conditions.
You upload your epub or word document. "You do not want to upload a pdf." You can but they don't convert well.

Now if it is picture heavy, take the 35% royalty instead of the 70% to avoid a huge delivery fee.

You would be better not checking select since you also want to sell it on your website.

Apple works pretty much the same way.

It is like easy peasy to publish a book.
Now rather than focus on a book you don't expect to sell, focus on the one that will.

PS: This advice will cost you $19.95 + shipping and handling when you make your first million.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:48 PM   #39
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Oh one other thing on selling books, more people trust the As (Apple and Amazon) much more than a person's website.

Every big independent author I know promote their books on their websites with links to wherever they publish. More customers, less headaches including the ubiquitous "I can't get your book to download" and taxes.

Put back a minimum of 30% of your income to pay the taxes.

Oh and welcome to the Cinisajoy adopt an author club.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:38 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
What do you mean by approaching Amazon?
You do not approach Amazon or iTunes.
You go here for Amazon.
https://kdp.amazon.com/signin?ref=az...seeall_kd_minC
You sign in with your Amazon account. You agree to the terms and conditions.
You upload your epub or word document. "You do not want to upload a pdf." You can but they don't convert well.
That's exactly what I mean by "approaching Amazon" - IF I decide to do business with them. There are many things to work out, and I may have a different marketing plan for each book.

I'm working on several series of books, and one of my ideas is to sell the first book in each series through Amazon and iBooks, with each book promoting other books in the series, which I could then try selling on my website (further promoting them with videos). I have to learn about Amazon's rules first, though; I don't know what they allow in terms of links and promotions.

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Old 02-05-2017, 08:10 PM   #41
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@sigilbear
Exactly. What you called "tell[ing] the stories behind their creation" is what I referred to as heraldry - the lore of flags, state symbols, coat of arms etc. This is why I said unless a book IS offering such an in-depth coverage on the subject matter, nobody seriously interested would care because for a quick basic lookup there are sites like symbols.com
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Old 02-05-2017, 08:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Freeshadow View Post
@sigilbear
Exactly. What you called "tell[ing] the stories behind their creation" is what I referred to as heraldry - the lore of flags, state symbols, coat of arms etc. This is why I said unless a book IS offering such an in-depth coverage on the subject matter, nobody seriously interested would care because for a quick basic lookup there are sites like symbols.com
But I think it's also important to keep in mind that comparing books an websites is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. If a person writes a book about Topic X and someone comes along puts that same information on the Internet, it will probably hurt the book's sales. However, I suspect some people would still buy the book.

They could include people who would like to have a copy they can read even when they're offline. Some may simply prefer a book format, and some may not even be aware of other sources; I wasn't even aware that symbols.com now has information about state symbols.

I'd love to write a book that sells a million copies, but I'm not going to complain if I only sell 100 copies direct or 300 through Amazon and iBooks. What's intriguing about epubs is the economics. With traditional paper books, you had to shell out thousands of dollars in order to print a few thousand books - just to test the waters.

In contrast, you can create an epub virtually free of charge and make a profit merely by targeting a tiny community of people who have a special interest in a particular topic.

I thought there were two major state symbols sites existing side by side, but there are actually THREE, including symbols.com. Wikipedia also has a lot of information about symbols.

Or consider a topic like elephants. You can probably find a hundred books about elephants - books for adults or children; coffee table books with spectacular books and ancient books that recount adventures with elephants in past centuries.

All these books exist side by side in its own niche.
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Old 02-05-2017, 08:49 PM   #43
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That's exactly what I mean by "approaching Amazon" - IF I decide to do business with them. There are many things to work out, and I may have a different marketing plan for each book.

I'm working on several series of books, and one of my ideas is to sell the first book in each series through Amazon and iBooks, with each book promoting other books in the series, which I could then try selling on my website (further promoting them with videos). I have to learn about Amazon's rules first, though; I don't know what they allow in terms of links and promotions.
Quick down and dirty on Amazon. You can promote anywhere you like. You can put your book link on your website. You can link on Facebook, Instagram and anywhere else you choose.
They want the business.

The only ones they care about are the Amazon affiliates that promote others books.

Look if I buy the first book on Amazon and like it, I will go back to Amazon for the rest. If the author has chose not to put the rest there, I will assume he is a one hit wonder and won't waste my time looking. Most Amazon readers are like that. Oh same idea for Kobo and Apple readers.

It appears you have big ambitions but haven't done the research or read about ereaderiq and thought it applied to authors. Ereaderiq is not an author but a promoter of others books. He makes money off linking to Amazon. Amazon was tired of paying the affiliates off of free books. Two other promoters had to change their marketing too. They just advertise less free books than when they started.

Now there are a books you can't sell at Amazon but you don't strike me as that kind of writer. You can't sell a certain type of p0rn there.

So now what other great wisdom do you want to know?
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Old 02-05-2017, 08:59 PM   #44
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But I think it's also important to keep in mind that comparing books an websites is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. If a person writes a book about Topic X and someone comes along puts that same information on the Internet, it will probably hurt the book's sales. However, I suspect some people would still buy the book.

They could include people who would like to have a copy they can read even when they're offline. Some may simply prefer a book format, and some may not even be aware of other sources; I wasn't even aware that symbols.com now has information about state symbols.

I'd love to write a book that sells a million copies, but I'm not going to complain if I only sell 100 copies direct or 300 through Amazon and iBooks. What's intriguing about epubs is the economics. With traditional paper books, you had to shell out thousands of dollars in order to print a few thousand books - just to test the waters.

In contrast, you can create an epub virtually free of charge and make a profit merely by targeting a tiny community of people who have a special interest in a particular topic.

I thought there were two major state symbols sites existing side by side, but there are actually THREE, including symbols.com. Wikipedia also has a lot of information about symbols.

Or consider a topic like elephants. You can probably find a hundred books about elephants - books for adults or children; coffee table books with spectacular books and ancient books that recount adventures with elephants in past centuries.

All these books exist side by side in its own niche.
Actually many bloggers write and sell books based on what is on their websites.

Now that you have me totally hooked, why do you want to be a writer?
What genre do you want to write in?
Do you have about $500 that you can invest? And I am lowballing.
Yes, you could do it all yourself. But unless you are super talented, get help.
Should I tell you about the college professor that tried to write a fiction book? He needed a good editor. He wrote the introduction like a college lecture. Needless to say, not many bought the book.

Oh and by the way, where did you read that videos sell books?

I hope all this helps.
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:01 PM   #45
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I'm working on a variety of books in several series, primarily symbols, geography, biology and political science. I'm also working on videos to promote them on YouTube and Vimeo. Plus I'm going to promote them on my websites and through corresponding with groups that might have a special interest in my books.

PERIOD.

That's my plan. If it doesn't work, I really don't care. One of the cool things about epubs is that they're essentially miniature websites. That will make it easier for me to convert them to websites, whether my books sell or not. I really can't lose.

After I've spent a few weeks or months trying it my way, I'll probably hook up with Amazon and iBooks. But I'll never sell all my books through them. And if I can't sell any books through them at all, then I'll try something else. I don't care how big they are - they are NOT the only options out there.

I've been designing websites for about 25 years. I've self-published books. I've worked as a contract writer. I had a contract with a major publisher for a series of six books, which I rejected because they tried to screw me. I then got an agent - but she turned out to be a flake.

I'm well aware that the publishing industry is incredibly complex and sleazy. It's a sewer.

So I'm going to do it MY WAY.
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