Marvin 3.0.6

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

On GitHub, an issue can be closed as a duplicate, on MobileRead a thread can be closed or merged...

And who will close/merge it? This Marvin subforum supposedly has moderators, but it appears they haven't been seen here for years.

If Kris appoints me to be the moderator/manager/whatever of Marvin's GitHub, I'll be happy to take on that task. Of course, in close cooperation with Kris, but so that I only bother him when it's absolutely necessary. That would certainly be a better solution than completely abandoning GitHub, which appears to be happening right now. I can see quite a few helpful GitHub posters who could be moderators/managers on GitHub along with, or instead of me. (They are certainly none of the MobileRead regulars; serious posters don't really have time for the mess that MobileRead is.)

So, no worries, guys. I have zero interest in being the moderator here on MobileRead. It's bad enough to have to read/ignore all the infernal trolls around here, but moderating them? Not me, thanks a lot!

Originally Posted by eschwartz

if people continue to post mentions in other threads or issues, what do you do?

You courteously remind them that there's a dedicated thread already open for that particular issue, and you point them to that thread with a specific, clickable link. That's standard moderators' work. (And I have worked as moderator in the past, and got paid for it, believe it or not. Precisely because I have experience with these things, I can see that MobileRead forums are beyond repair; certainly the Marvin subsection.)

Originally Posted by eschwartz

The fact that you continue to insist you believe in the "one issue per thread" paradigm, while at the same time going ahead and posting comments to irrelevant threads (e.g. this one here)

It's not an irrelevant thread at all. Re-read the opening post of this thread: it talks about page-numbering in Marvin, claiming that it's "fixed". Because it is not fixed in any sense of the word, I reacted to the opening post with exactly 5 lines of text, making them as brief as possible, courteously asking Kris for a remedy. (And posting those specific links to earlier threads, so that no further duplication arises.) That is standard, and that must be allowed. Then you guys went berserk, as usual, cementing MobileRead's status as a totally useless venue for serious software discussions.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

page numbers do need to be constant so they do not change when you change settings

What a laughable, ridiculous claim. That's Jon inside his ADE bubble again. Jon, it's OK for you to be an Adobe fan. But please understand that not all human beings on this planet are exactly just like you, and that not everyone is ready to die on the spot for Adobe.

I consider page-numbers in e-books crucial, but I claim the exact opposite of what you've just said above: page numbers must not be constant when you change settings or your reading device. They must adapt to the current settings and current reading device, just like page-numbering in printed books adapts to the current format (paperback, hard-cover, whatever).

The solution for Kris and Marvin, as has been mentioned many times, is very easy (conceptually): give every Marvin user the option to select whatever page-numbering scheme he or she prefers. Jon would select ADE; I would select pages=screens (which already is in Marvin, but – inexplicably and outrageously inconsistently – only for "pages in chapters"); other Marvin users might stick with Marvin's current (outlandish) "pages" scheme; and still other users, like eschwartz, would disable the display of page numbers altogether.

That way, everyone will be satisfied. So, let's join forces, guys and gals, and let's jointly appeal to Kris to implement this solution, because it truly satisfies the needs of all Marvin users.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Given Marvin's way of offering choices, if anyone can come up with other page numbers that would work, add them in too and give us a choice of which we want to use.

That is the best statement, Jon, you've posted to MobileRead over the last 10 years. I'm so moved and pleasantly surprised I could weep.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A % doesn't work. You don't know how long you have left if you are 40% into the book.

Correct. That is exactly why we do need page numbers in e-books. We just differ in our page-numbering concepts, Jon, that's all. You prefer ADE, while I prefer pages=screens, but that's fine. To each their own, right? So, all that needs to be done is to persuade Kris to give us this freedom of choice you and I talk about.

By the way, % does work for other purposes, such as for cross-platform reference purposes. You prefer to use ADE pages for that, while I very much favor the "% inside the text" metric – with 4 digits for increased precision (72.46%).

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Attached is a screenshot - notice the page numbers at the bottom.

They (if you instruct Marvin to display "pages in book", which is what this debate is all about) are not page numbers at all – merely Marvin's ill-chosen imitation of page numbers. Unacceptable to me – a truly inferior solution, and an unnecessary invention. If we're going for fake pages, there already is ADE. Why go for yet another type of fake pages?

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Yes it is only pages of that chapter because it's quite pointless (and time consuming) to calculate that number for chapters that aren't open yet.

You're kidding, Turtle, right? We have gigabytes of RAM on our reading-devices, but it's "time-consuming" to calculate how many pages an e-book has? Now that's a good one.

And it's not pointless at all. In fact, it's very likely the most crucial metric that most readers (who aren't MobileRead geeks) are interested in: "How many pages do I have to go until I finish this book?" Don't get me wrong: I also find the "pages in chapter" metric essential, but compared to "pages in book", it's definitely a secondary metric.

Originally Posted by Turtle91

The exact number of pages remaining in the book really doesn't mean anything until you're on the last chapter anyway.

Oh, really? You forgot to insert "to me" in your sentence. To me, seeing the exact number of pages to go (both in current chapter and in the book) means a lot. I find it essential, and it was one of the Marvin 2 weaknesses, to me, that no such metric ("pages in book") was offered by it. So, I was initially ecstatic when the Marvin 3 announcement came out: "Page numbers, here we come!" All the greater shock and disappointment, after it became obvious what a sad travesty Marvin's current implementation of "page" numbers is.

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Percentage is exactly right for every book... If I've read 40%, then I have 60% left to go...

But sometimes, zero decimals is not enough. In large e-books (say, corresponding to 1000-page printed books), a single percentage may stretch over 10 or 15 iPad screens (and dozens of iPhone screens!). Therefore, Marvin should give us the option to use 0, 1, or 2 decimals for the "percentage read" metric. (Zero can remain the default as it is now.)

Originally Posted by Turtle91

How many screen flips is that?? Who Cares?!?!

Pretty much everyone who's not a MobileRead geek. You can bet on that.

[kguil]

@Faterson Glad you liked the change.

@mariosipad I think that @FredipusRex was referring to the initial launch price (to offer a semblance of upgrade pricing to M2 readers).

@everyone I have read pages and pages of feedback regarding page numbers. At this point, I get what everyone, including myself, prefers and wants.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by kguil

@everyone I have read pages and pages of feedback regarding page numbers. At this point, I get what everyone, including myself, prefers and wants.

That's great! Hopefully, you will find the time one day to act upon that knowledge. As has just been mentioned, there is a solution that would satisfy everyone in this regard. And, as a good businessman, you doubtlessly know that "the customer is the king" and that serving the customer's needs takes precedence over serving the needs of the service provider, right?

[JKenP]

I think you missed the satirical direction on that. If I were Kris, I go with the random number generator for a bit of programming fun.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by JKenP

I think you missed the satirical direction on that.

And I think you're imagining it. No serious-minded software developer makes fun of user feedback and of concerns voiced by his paying customers.

[JKenP]

Some paying customers expect too much from their $4.95 investment. If he took all of us seriously, he go bonkers. Silly that the subject has worn out its welcome and yet you keep repeating your demands.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Faterson

And I think you're imagining it. No serious-minded software developer makes fun of user feedback and of concerns voiced by his paying customers.

Sure they do. But only once the paying customer has heaped more abuse on the developer than their payment compensates for.

In the case of Marvin, you are not paying him nearly enough to make it worth his time to listen to the sheer quantity of complaints you raise.

...

Remember. Just because you bought his product, doesn't mean you have a right to determine the future direction.
You do, however, have a right to provide constructive input about your desires, which the developer then has freedom to take into consideration when evaluating the targeted appeal of his software.

If the developer decides that your request is not where his software should be going, that is that -- and it doesn't matter why he rejects it.
Obviously, if he wants to attract customers, he should come across as responsive to the needs of his users... but that means being polite and listening to what you have to say, not necessarily fulfilling all your whims. (If you want to command him what to work on, purchase a commercial support contract.)

YOU have broken the social contract, and he is now free to make fun of you in retaliation, if he wishes to do so. Personally, I think it was admirably restrained of him, and he is to be admired for keeping his cool.
Some people just make subtle jokes about their abusive customers... some people curse them out and tell them never to show their face again.

...

I cannot believe I actually have to explain such a simple concept to you. Surely, none of this is news?

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I cannot believe I actually have to explain such a simple concept to you. Surely, none of this is news?

Well...yes you do... As he will explain....He grew up in a country suppressed by the soviets and COULDN'T speak his mind. Now that he's free he intends to speak his mind...constantly, and repeatedly... because he can. It doesn't matter that his behavior is way beyond what people consider rude. I have tried, many times, to politely point out to him where his behavior crosses the line, but he doesn't care (re: he's free to talk now).

Without an active moderator in this forum, our only recourse is to use the "ignore" feature of the MR forums. This is unfortunate, because he actually has some good points occasionally... He just doesn't know when enough is enough and that it's time to stop... Also, (un?)fortunately that means the only time I see comments from him is when others quote the comments he's made.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

YOU have broken the social contract

You're talking to Turtle, right? No need to be so harsh. Trolls will be trolls. Although I do find it hilarious to see the worst offenders calling others to order repeatedly.

Now what about, instead of constantly attacking fellow MobileRead users, returning to the purpose of these forums? This is supposed to be about discussing the Marvin software, with the intent to improve it and help fellow users in utilizing it. Please get back on track, eschwartz and others. Thank you very much in advance.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Faterson

You're talking to Turtle, right? No need to be so harsh. Trolls will be trolls. Although I do find it hilarious to see the worst offenders calling others to order repeatedly.

Now what about, instead of constantly attacking fellow MobileRead users, returning to the purpose of these forums? This is supposed to be about discussing the Marvin software, with the intent to improve it and help fellow users in utilizing it. Please get back on track, eschwartz and others. Thank you very much in advance.

I think that maybe you need to start looking in a mirror, my friend. Yes, this forum is suppose to be about Marvin, but when you keep pounding away at everyone like you do, it pretty much kills all other conversation. I'm pretty sure that Kris is smart enough to figure out what you are saying about page numbers by now, and if he wants to go in that direction, he'll let you know. Maybe you should do like the rest of us who have request do. Make the request, then let Kris decide if he's going to add it or not.

[JKenP]

@Faterson

No he was not talking about Turtle; he was talking about you. You are the disruptive force here. Trying to get you to see that has happened in a fairly courteous manner to this point. You don't seem to recognize the courteous approaches made.

Kris, has made it clear what his preferences are. He is the final arbiter. Time for you to recognize that

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Faterson

You're talking to Turtle, right?

If you merely want to poke fun at others, feel free to make bad jokes.
If you expect others to treat you seriously, then it would behoove you to ask in a serious manner... which means you should not be acting in such a willfully blind manner.

Everyone here knows exactly who I was talking to, on account of it is the person whose post I responded to.... There is no doubt in my mind that you know who I was talking to as well.

I am therefore forced to conclude, that you have no intention of being serious whatsoever, and that you regard this whole conversation as an ineffectual joke.

Unless you correct my assumption, I will therefore treat all further posts of yours of a similar nature, as ineffectual jokes.
Because I assume that is what you want to hear.

Feel free to correct me if I have read your intent wrong. But if so, please also take care to avoid confusing people again.

No need to be so harsh. Trolls will be trolls. Although I do find it hilarious to see the worst offenders calling others to order repeatedly.

Now what about, instead of constantly attacking fellow MobileRead users, returning to the purpose of these forums? This is supposed to be about discussing the Marvin software, with the intent to improve it and help fellow users in utilizing it. Please get back on track, eschwartz and others. Thank you very much in advance.

As is entirely typical of your posts here, you have completely ignored the vast majority of my post, and then seized upon one little fragment to argue about.

Feel free to respond again, this time keeping in mind the large amount of surrounding context you ignored in the post I have quoted here.

Once you do so, I will be more than happy to listen to your words regarding whether or not we are all trolls.
Note that the behavior of yours which I have called out in this response, is behavior typical of trolls, so you might wish to consider whether or not it is truly appropriate to accuse us of being trolls.

...

I really would love to return to the purpose of these forums. Which is why I continue having conversations with you -- I am hoping to persuade you that these forums will resume their rightful purpose as soon as you stop derailing threads by bringing up issues that have already been discussed ad nauseam, and which have nothing left to say (except bitter complaints that kguil doesn't want to listen to you).