Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Readers > Kobo Reader

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-14-2020, 06:57 AM   #1
Waylander
Fanatic
Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Waylander ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 519
Karma: 2904924
Join Date: Oct 2013
Device: Kobo Clara HD, Kindle Paperwhite 4
Widows and Orphans

This might be the wrong place for this post, but I'm having issues with widows and orphans on my Clara HD. I followed the steps to remove widows and orphans when converting books to epub. However, some still have inconsistent bottom margins even after this process. I downloaded The Wheel of Osheim and by Mark Lawrence and The Silver Tide by Jen Williams from Amazon. Different publishers, both AZW3, and still had inconsistent bottom margins after conversion to epub following the widows and orphans process. Is there anything else I can do?
Waylander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 08:11 AM   #2
davidfor
Grand Sorcerer
davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.davidfor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 19,372
Karma: 32874111
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos
What are you doing to remove the widows and orphan? As Kobo uses the default value of 2 for these, you want to set these to 1. I normally put it in the body class, but, sometimes leave it in the class used for the body text.

And even when you have it set to this, the space at the bottom depends on what is on the page. If it is all just text with the same class, and hence the same size and spacing, the space at the bottom will be consistent. And it will be room for less than one line.

But, on pages with other elements on it, such as a chapter heading or a scene break, then the amount of space at the bottom will be different. It should still be less than the space required for one line, but, the exact size will be different from the plain text pages.

Beyond those comments, we would need to see some examples. The book code and screenshots should help to tell what is happening.
davidfor is online now   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 04-14-2020, 12:23 PM   #3
Quoth
the rook, bossing Never.
Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Quoth's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,985
Karma: 8910112
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ireland
Device: Both Kinds: epub based makes and Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waylander View Post
I followed the steps to remove widows and orphans when converting books to epub.
Widows and orphans are starts and ends of a paragraph on a different page. Having no empty space at the bottom of the screen actually creates widows and orphans, which can interrupt the flow of reading/understanding more than the space can. Obviously on say a 2" to 5" screen you might want paragraphs to avoid extra space and create widows and orphans. On a 6.8" or larger screen, or 6" 300 dpi with small text you'd want to avoid widows and orphans by having a varying amount of space at the bottom of the page.
Quoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 02:51 PM   #4
stumped
Wizard
stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,932
Karma: 5333538
Join Date: May 2016
Device: kobo forma, Kobo Libra, Huawei media Tab, fire HD10, PW3 HDX8.9,
Good point. Remove widows and orphans is the opposite of "make all screens have the same number of text lines". The setting for achieving the latter is "allow widows and orphans"? Unless I have double negatived myself into a confused mess (which is a possibility )

I set W and O values to 1 in css ( having been lectured about not setting them to zero) and all my pages render full length. Is that = removing them?
stumped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 03:00 PM   #5
DNSB
Bibliophagist
DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DNSB's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,803
Karma: 34578801
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Device: Kobo Forma, Clara HD, Nexus 7 HD, iPad Pro, Tolino epos
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumped View Post
Good point. Remove widows and orphans is the opposite of "make all screens have the same number of text lines". The setting for achieving the latter is "allow widows and orphans"? Unless I have double negatived myself into a confused mess (which is a possibility )

I set W and O values to 1 in css ( having been lectured about not setting them to zero) and all my pages render full length. Is that = removing them?
Setting widows and orphans to 1 is the logical equivalent of removing them. If there are no widows/orphans defined, RMSDK defaults to 2. To keep things simpler, I set this in the body css instead of having it in multiple locations. However this will not guarantee the same number of text lines on each page since chapter headings, section breaks, spacing between paragraphs can all cause a gap at the bottom of a page where a line will not fit.

I prefer that possible gap to having a page that is solid text with no extra spacing between elements.
DNSB is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 04-14-2020, 03:09 PM   #6
Quoth
the rook, bossing Never.
Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Quoth's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,985
Karma: 8910112
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ireland
Device: Both Kinds: epub based makes and Kindle
No, it's the opposite. If a paragraph runs across a page break then the smaller bit before or smaller bit after so page is filled is the Widow or Orphan. I forget which is which. Intuitively I'd imagine a line (or two) finishing a paragraph but on the top of the next page is an Orphan and a line (or two) alone that's the start of a paragraph on the bottom of a page is the Widow. But I may have them back to front.

I think a setting of one basically means a paragraph doesn't jump to the next page if otherwise a Widow or Orphan is created. I can't see how 0 has a meaning. But I could be wrong.

If you have to page back to re-read a paragraph in entirety to understand it, it MIGHT be there is a widowed or orphaned line (or two, or three), or it might mean it's badly written or you were distracted. Obviously it's easier to cope with a split paragraph were neither the orphan or widow is less than four lines. Or three.
Quoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 03:17 PM   #7
stumped
Wizard
stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,932
Karma: 5333538
Join Date: May 2016
Device: kobo forma, Kobo Libra, Huawei media Tab, fire HD10, PW3 HDX8.9,
I recall that the default value of 2 did cause some pages to be shorter than others, which always tricks my mind into expecting a chapter end.
So I took to setting them to zero.
Then someone here said that zero is an invalid setting and different renderers may treat that differently as it's technically an error.
So now I set both to 1.
I have that as a bit of extra css for calibre to add in for me. And it seems to work ok. Doing it manually for every book would be tedious.
stumped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 03:47 PM   #8
Sirtel
Wizard
Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Sirtel's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,947
Karma: 25791113
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Estonia
Device: Kindle Voyage/Oasis 2/Oasis 3/Nook Glowlight Plus 7.8''/Kobo Libra H2O
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumped View Post
So now I set both to 1.
I have that as a bit of extra css for calibre to add in for me. And it seems to work ok. Doing it manually for every book would be tedious.
I do the same. (Actually I have a couple of other extra css rules besides w/o, disabling hyphenation for example).
Sirtel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 03:49 PM   #9
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 57,882
Karma: 52821107
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, iPad 4, iPhone SE 2020, PW3
One of the patches turns off or sets Widow and orphans to 1.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 03:51 PM   #10
DNSB
Bibliophagist
DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DNSB ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DNSB's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,803
Karma: 34578801
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Device: Kobo Forma, Clara HD, Nexus 7 HD, iPad Pro, Tolino epos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
No, it's the opposite. If a paragraph runs across a page break then the smaller bit before or smaller bit after so page is filled is the Widow or Orphan. I forget which is which.
Widows are at the end (bottom of page), orphans are at the beginning (top of page).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
I think a setting of one basically means a paragraph doesn't jump to the next page if otherwise a Widow or Orphan is created. I can't see how 0 has a meaning. But I could be wrong.
Widows and orphans set the minimum number of lines that will appear at the top or bottom of a page. 1 says 1 line, 2 is a minimum of two lines, etc. And 0 is indeed undefined since widows and orphans are specified as positive integers though most renderers treat it as 1.

For those reading epubs, there is a patch for librmsdk.so.1.0.0 in the kobopatcher collection ( Disable orphans/widows avoidance: yes ) that disables widows/orphans (effectively forces to 1).
DNSB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 04:09 PM   #11
Quoth
the rook, bossing Never.
Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Quoth's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,985
Karma: 8910112
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ireland
Device: Both Kinds: epub based makes and Kindle
I was vague deliberately!
Quote:
There is some disagreement about the definitions of widow and orphan; what one source calls a widow another calls an orphan.
Except the bottom of the page is the START of a paragraph and the top of the next page has the END of the same paragraph.
Overall though it's a poor article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widows_and_orphans

Now I'm going to have to experiment!

It's worse with paper as you may want to insert blank pages.

Last edited by Quoth; 04-14-2020 at 04:13 PM.
Quoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 05:08 PM   #12
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 57,882
Karma: 52821107
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, iPad 4, iPhone SE 2020, PW3
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
Widows are at the end (bottom of page), orphans are at the beginning (top of page).



Widows and orphans set the minimum number of lines that will appear at the top or bottom of a page. 1 says 1 line, 2 is a minimum of two lines, etc. And 0 is indeed undefined since widows and orphans are specified as positive integers though most renderers treat it as 1.

For those reading epubs, there is a patch for librmsdk.so.1.0.0 in the kobopatcher collection ( Disable orphans/widows avoidance: yes ) that disables widows/orphans (effectively forces to 1).
Widows and orphans set to 0 does work with RMSDK. I've used it before switching to 1.

I've seen widows and orphans set to 2 in the CSS. When I edit an ePub, I alsoways set windows and orphans to 1 in <body>

Code:
body {
  widows: 1;
  orphans: 1;
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-right: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  margin-left: 0;
  text-align: justify;
}
In a printed book, you can fudge things so the page does not have such a gap at the bottom. But with a Reader, you can't do that and it doesn't look good. It does look much better without widows and orphans when most pages end in the same place.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 09:08 PM   #13
RobertJSawyer
Fanatic
RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RobertJSawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
RobertJSawyer's Avatar
 
Posts: 510
Karma: 1812388
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Device: Kobo Clara HD, Aura HD, Aura, Mini; Kindle PaperWhite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
Having no empty space at the bottom of the screen actually creates widows and orphans, which can interrupt the flow of reading/understanding more than the space can.
An opinion, but hardly the only one. In books that use blank lines with no typographic ornaments to indicate scene or section changes (and that is a great number of books), leaving blank space at the bottom of the screen confusingly makes it look like the current scene has ended ... only to find that it continues on the next screen and THAT can interrupt the flow of reading/understanding.

Widow/orphan control is a typographic nicety created for printed books which typically show many more lines per page than do six-inch E Ink devices, when used with default settings.
RobertJSawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2020, 07:27 AM   #14
Quoth
the rook, bossing Never.
Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Quoth's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,985
Karma: 8910112
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ireland
Device: Both Kinds: epub based makes and Kindle
Certainly true with 167 dpi 6" or 800 x 600 screen ereaders. Not so valid with 300 dpi 7" ereaders and a small font.
Quoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2020, 10:54 AM   #15
ps67
Evangelist
ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ps67 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 428
Karma: 1400000
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Italy
Device: Kindle Paperwhite, Kobo Aura One
My personal taste is that widows and orphans are bad in pBook but I want to avoid white space at the bottom of the screen in my Kobo (and also in my Kindle).
So: widows: 1; orphans: 1;
ps67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Widows and Orphans jhowell Kindle Formats 83 04-16-2020 09:04 PM
Widows and Orphans Calenorn Kobo Reader 3 10-21-2019 10:52 AM
Pagebreak, widows and orphans UncleIvor ePub 17 09-11-2015 11:12 AM
using widows & orphans cybmole Sigil 11 05-16-2011 01:07 AM
Widows and Orphans danrodney ePub 10 12-08-2010 02:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:44 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.