(sigh), Kindle/KPF format Blues...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

How long have you been using computers?

Good point, but assuming that we're not all utterly incompetent here, (which we try not to be more than once a week) if Wolfie used that CSS and MQs sans issue, I really can't see a good reason why our ePUBs would suddenly bang the drum...but, hell, I'll check.

Hitch

[Hitch]

AH-hah...

I remember what it is.

It's the media queries AROUND images. The KF8 and KF7 image coding.

When we made ePUBs with the kf7 hidden and kf8 hidden images and used the two different sizing methods--pixels for KF7 and % for KF8, the files started getting totally bollixed in real devices.

If memory serves--and I'll have to go look--they did pass ePUBcheck, but on real Nooks and stuff, it wasn't a pretty picture.

(But, yes, somewhere, and I'll pull it out of these crusty old brain cells somewhere, there WAS an ePUBcheck crash and burn...)

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

When we made ePUBs with the kf7 hidden and kf8 hidden images and used the two different sizing methods--pixels for KF7 and % for KF8, the files started getting totally bollixed in real devices.

Yeah, I could definitely see that as a pain point.

Originally Posted by Hitch

If memory serves--and I'll have to go look--they did pass ePUBcheck, but on real Nooks and stuff, it wasn't a pretty picture.

(But, yes, somewhere, and I'll pull it out of these crusty old brain cells somewhere, there WAS an ePUBcheck crash and burn...)

Could it be a specific store's complaints too? Like iBooks?

Just a few days ago I got a complaint that my EPUB covers were TOO LARGE! iBooks denied the book because the cover was >4 million pixels. (Weren't they the ones that initially pushed for much higher resolution covers when iPad came out???)

1800 x 2700 = 4,860,000
1600 x 2400 = 3,840,000

So while "1600px shortest side" is now recommended at almost all the stores, and iBooks was one of the first to push for that... that max pixels just doesn't leave much wiggleroom.

Side Note: I recently had my own brainfart with Color Links. I knew there was SOME reason why they were a bad idea, but had to dig in the ol' memory hole to refresh. (E-ink + Night Mode + Black-on-Black Text.)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Wolfie, dear, that's irrational. I mean, if you don't why would we? It's got to be something else.

Hitch

I know the code validates. I suggested it so you can text your setup.

I used the epubcheck plugin for the Calibre editor which is using the latest epubcheck.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Yeah, I could definitely see that as a pain point.



Could it be a specific store's complaints too? Like iBooks?

No, it was that the rendering got bollixed, when the renderer read the in-line HTML sizing for the kf7.

If you'll recall, for the KF7 fallback, you can put the code into the img tag, right?

WELL...just GUESS what an ePUB does when it's faced with an inline CSS command, the KF7, versus the KF8, where one says "display it at 400px wide" and the other says, "display it at 40% of the screensize" or whatever? It pukes or chooses the wrong one.

Just a few days ago I got a complaint that my EPUB covers were TOO LARGE! iBooks denied the book because the cover was >4 million pixels. (Weren't they the ones that initially pushed for much higher resolution covers when iPad came out???)

1800 x 2700 = 4,860,000
1600 x 2400 = 3,840,000

So while "1600px shortest side" is now recommended at almost all the stores, and iBooks was one of the first to push for that... that max pixels just doesn't leave much wiggleroom.

This happens to us ALL the time. Someone doesn't tell us that they're going to distro with Ingram, iBooks, SW, whatever and sure as shoot, we get that error. Annoying as crapola.

Side Note: I recently had my own brainfart with Color Links. I knew there was SOME reason why they were a bad idea, but had to dig in the ol' memory hole to refresh. (E-ink + Night Mode + Black-on-Black Text.)

Oh, JETH. Set the color and they will disappear as surely as if they are the wee princes of darkness. Vamp links!

Hitch

[slowsmile]

Another problem is troubling me now concerning how to format images for KF7, KF8 AND KFX when you upload just an epub. This problem arises particularly if you use banner-like images(width much wider than height) that are smaller in width than the full screen width of the reading device.

I tested the above problem recently and can find no way to adequately satisfy the image formatting requirements for KF8, KF7 as well as satisfying the HDV sizing requirements for KFX or ET-enabled devices.

For example, say you have alot of banner-like images -- smaller than screen width -- that you want to insert into your epub. It's easy enough to satisfy the KF8 and KF7 requirements using dual image formatting with media queries. But how do you also satisfy the KFX requirement, which also requires that you satisfy the High Definition Visual image sizing specification for KFX? This HDV sizing compliance specification is shown below:

1. For 50% screen width, your image must be at least 600 x 900 px in size.
2. For 75% screen width, your image must be at least 900 x 1350 px in size.
3. For 100% screen width, your image must be at least 1200 x 1800 px in size.

Notice how much larger the images have to be for KFX sizing compliance as compared to the smaller sizing requirements for KF8 or KF7 images.

And so there seems to be a big problem with images (that does not really affect KF8). Should I format and size all my banner-like images according to the KF7 requirements(in absolute pixels) or should I format my images as 75% screen width using KFX's image sizing compliance of 900 x 1350 pixels?

The problem arises when you add your images to the epub. Do I add all those images sized in pixels at the actual size that they will be displayed on the screen for KF7 or do I add all my epub images as per the HDV sizing compliance for KFX?

If you use KF7 pixel dimensions(not percentages) in your epub image formatting then, on all KFX devices, you're going to get images that may look degraded or smaller due non-compliance with the HDV image sizing spec.

And if I format and add all my banner-like images to my epub according to the KFX HDV spec as 75% screen width then all I'm ever going to get on KF7 devices is a full screen width image which is not what I want.

The only way I can see where it would be possible to satisfy all image requirements across all KF7, KF8 and KFX devices easily would be to just insert ALL images according to the KFX HDV spec at max screen width(as a percentage of h/w) and just hope for the best, which is a crappy solution really.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by slowsmile

Another problem is troubling me now concerning how to format images for KF7, KF8 AND KFX when you upload just an epub. This problem arises particularly if you use banner-like images(width much wider than height) that are smaller in width than the full screen width of the reading device.

I tested the above problem recently and can find no way to adequately satisfy the image formatting requirements for KF8, KF7 as well as satisfying the HDV sizing requirements for KFX or ET-enabled devices.

For example, say you have alot of banner-like images -- smaller than screen width -- that you want to insert into your epub. It's easy enough to satisfy the KF8 and KF7 requirements using dual image formatting with media queries. But how do you also satisfy the KFX requirement, which also requires that you satisfy the High Definition Visual image sizing specification for KFX? This HDV sizing compliance specification is shown below:

1. For 50% screen width, your image must be at least 600 x 900 px in size.
2. For 75% screen width, your image must be at least 900 x 1350 px in size.
3. For 100% screen width, your image must be at least 1200 x 1800 px in size.

Notice how much larger the images have to be for KFX sizing compliance as compared to the smaller sizing requirements for KF8 or KF7 images.

And so there seems to be a big problem with images (that does not really affect KF8). Should I format and size all my banner-like images according to the KF7 requirements(in absolute pixels) or should I format my images as 75% screen width using KFX's image sizing compliance of 900 x 1350 pixels?

The problem arises when you add your images to the epub. Do I add all those images sized in pixels at the actual size that they will be displayed on the screen for KF7 or do I add all my epub images as per the HDV sizing compliance for KFX?

If you use KF7 pixel dimensions(not percentages) in your epub image formatting then, on all KFX devices, you're going to get images that may look degraded or smaller due non-compliance with the HDV image sizing spec.

And if I format and add all my banner-like images to my epub according to the KFX spec as 75% screen width then all I'm ever going to get on KF7 devices is a full screen width image which is not what I want.

The only way I can see where it would be possible to satisfy all image requirements across all KF7, KF8 and KFX devices easily would be to just insert ALL images according to the KFX HDV spec at max screen width(as a percentage of h/w) and just hope for the best, which is a crappy solution really.

Why not just use the HD sizing but stick with the KF8 and 7 sizing? What do you think that would do?

Hitch

[slowsmile]

I'm actually just going to go with what you just said in your last post. I'm just going to dual format with media queries as normal and just leave it at that. Thinking about it gives me a headache...

I also spotted another possible problem with my AddKindleMediaQueries plugin which might be a problem if you are uploading your epub to KF7, KF8 and KFX. Currently, the media query only addresses KF7 and KF8 devices -- it does not explicitly address KFX devices.

Anyway, to get around the above problem and as a precaution I may soon be releasing a new version of my AddKindleMediaQueries that explicitly targets images on KFX devices in the same way as for KF8. It's only a small change, but necessary I think. The new media queries code will probably look something like this(with emphasis on the change):

@media amzn-mobi {
     .kf8only {
       display: none;
     }
     .mobionly {
       display: inline;
     }
}

@media amzn-kf8 or amzn-ET {
     .kf8only {
       display: inline;
     }
     .mobionly {
       display: none;
    }
}

...With no change to the dual formatting in the xhtml files. Still testing the above queries.

[slowsmile]

...Just realized there's no real need to change anything at all in the media query code. Using 'not amzn-mobi7' should do just fine. This KFX thing is giving me a real headache. Way too much screen time. I'm gonna go sit on my outside porch with a coffee for a while and watch the plants grow in my garden I think...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by slowsmile

...Just realized there's no need to change anything at all in the media query code. Using 'not amzn-mobi7' should do just fine.

Cool. Let us know how it goes.

Hitch

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by slowsmile

...Just realized there's no real need to change anything at all in the media query code. Using 'not amzn-mobi7' should do just fine.

You don't need to change anything. "amzn-kf8" targets both KF8 and KFX formats.

(Also I would be cautious about using "amzn-et". As far as I know it is not documented anywhere.)

[slowsmile]

@jhowell...Thanks for confirming that, which I suspected was the case.

But I'm still in the dark about how to properly format images in an epub for correct display across all KF7, KF8 and KFX devices. I made the point in my longer post above that images must be formatted for KF7 in absolute pixels whereas images formatted in KFX must be formatted as percentage of screen width AND must also comply with KFX's HDV image sizings. Dual formatting your images using media queries will certainly cover formatting for KF8 and KF7 devices but it does not properly cover KFX devices because HDV compliance also requires that you must use much larger images for KFX than the images required for KF8 or KF7.

So if you format and store all your smaller-sized images in your epub at real image size in pixels then this will enable proper displays across all KF7 devices. But such images may look degraded and lower quality across all KFX devices because all stored images will be formatted to a smaller size for KF7 which does not properly follow KFX's HDV image sizing compliance, which will not play well on KFX -- resulting in poor quality image displays across all KFX devices.

Similarly if you format all your epub images according to the HDV compliance(using larger images) for KFX and format your images using percentage of screen width then there will be no problems on KFX(or KF8) devices but, unfortunately, KF7 format will ignore the percentage styling completely -- so all you will ever get is lower quality images that will always be displayed at max screen width because all HDV sizings for images are so large -- usually much larger than screen width.

The gist of what I'm saying is that it seems to be impossible to implement an image width or size that is smaller than max screen width across all KFX, KF8 and KF7 devices for all reasons given. The only way I can see to accurately display these images across all devices seems to be to only use percentage styling with all images set to max screen width. That would probably work but, IMHO, that's a poor solution really because its your only option.

I've also assumed that if you upload a properly formatted Word doc direct to KDP then the aforementioned smaller images in the Word doc will only display properly on KFX devices. For older KF8 devices(without ET enabled) I'm also assuming that all your Word images will just display as mobi7 on KF8 devices -- where all your smaller images will, instead, be full page width and look awful -- because the older KF8 format(without ET) has gone AWOL. I'm still gob-smacked that Amazon Kindle has done this.

[JSWolf]

The thing I would do is make the images follow the image sizes for the width and let the height fall where is may to keep the aspect ratio correct. Test it in the current Kindle Previewer to see if it can be converted to KFX.

I think KFX is a big mistake. I also think not allowing KF8 only eBook s is also a big mistake. There are things you cannot do in Mobi and if you have to do them and there's no way to them properly in Mobi, then don't have Mobi available.

Amazon is keeping things backwards in order to satisfy an outdated obsolete format. So publishers are doing stupid things in order for the eBook to work as Mobi. For example, using images of text that Mobi doesn't handle but ePub and KF8 do.

[slowsmile]

@JSWolf...

"The thing I would do is make the images follow the image sizes for the width and let the height fall where is may to keep the aspect ratio correct. Test it in the current Kindle Previewer to see if it can be converted to KFX."

As I've already mentioned -- for an epub, if you want to upload to KF7, KF8 and KFX, then all your images will have to be either full-width or full-page images. Any other smaller image sizing will just give image problems in one or other of those formats. This problem also has nothing whatsoever to do with image aspect ratio.

"I think KFX is a big mistake. I also think not allowing KF8 only eBook s is also a big mistake. There are things you cannot do in Mobi and if you have to do them and there's no way to them properly in Mobi, then don't have Mobi available."

I disagree. I think Kindle have done that for very delibrate reasons that no-one has worked out yet. I also think that their KFX mods aren't complete yet -- there's more to come. After all, they wouldn't implement such significant changes for KFX for no reason would they? And maybe all will become clearer once all their mods for KFX are complete.

"Amazon is keeping things backwards in order to satisfy an outdated obsolete format. So publishers are doing stupid things in order for the eBook to work as Mobi. For example, using images of text that Mobi doesn't handle but ePub and KF8 do. "

Yeah, and what about KF8 format that Amazon has dumped?? With KF8 and KF7 at least we could format any sized image in our epubs. Now, we are only left with KF7 or KFX format and only have the option of full-page images or full width images or just suffer the consequences. That's a crappy choice for sure.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by slowsmile

@jhowell...Thanks for confirming that, which I suspected was the case.

But I'm still in the dark about how to properly format images in an epub for correct display across all KF7, KF8 and KFX devices. I made the point in my longer post above that images must be formatted for KF7 in absolute pixels whereas images formatted in KFX must be formatted as percentage of screen width AND must also comply with KFX's HDV image sizings. Dual formatting your images using media queries will certainly cover formatting for KF8 and KF7 devices but it does not properly cover KFX devices because HDV compliance also requires that you must use much larger images for KFX than the images required for KF8 or KF7.

So if you format and store all your smaller-sized images in your epub at real image size in pixels then this will enable proper displays across all KF7 devices. But such images may look degraded and lower quality across all KFX devices because all stored images will be formatted to a smaller size for KF7 which does not properly follow KFX's HDV image sizing compliance, which will not play well on KFX -- resulting in poor quality image displays across all KFX devices.

Similarly if you format all your epub images according to the HDV compliance(using larger images) for KFX and format your images using percentage of screen width then there will be no problems on KFX(or KF8) devices but, unfortunately, KF7 format will ignore the percentage styling completely -- so all you will ever get is lower quality images that will always be displayed at max screen width because all HDV sizings for images are so large -- usually much larger than screen width.

The gist of what I'm saying is that it seems to be impossible to implement an image width or size that is smaller than max screen width across all KFX, KF8 and KF7 devices for all reasons given. The only way I can see to accurately display these images across all devices seems to be to only use percentage styling with all images set to max screen width. That would probably work but, IMHO, that's a poor solution really because its your only option.

I've also assumed that if you upload a properly formatted Word doc direct to KDP then the aforementioned smaller images in the Word doc will only display properly on KFX devices. For older KF8 devices(without ET enabled) I'm also assuming that all your Word images will just display as mobi7 on KF8 devices -- where all your smaller images will, instead, be full page width and look awful -- because the older KF8 format(without ET) has gone AWOL. I'm still gob-smacked that Amazon Kindle has done this.

So, William:

You're saying that simply using HDV-sized images, coded as KF8 (using %) and using the hidden/KF7 method will NOT work?

I'm just trying to make sure that your testing is showing...what, exactly?

If you use the large image sizes dictated for KFX, but follow the CSS for KF8 and KF7, like in your plugin--what happens, exactly?

Hitch